User talk:Sarri.greek/2019
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2019
Happy New Year. sarri.greek (talk) 09:35, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
βγάζω
There is a problem with en-el/el-en dictionaries — they are intended for Greeks learning english - helpful notes are nearly always in Greek! Does "μετοχή παθητικού παρακειμένου" mean that the active shares the participle of a non-existant passive? That is from my Oxford Greek Learner's D. Do you think this verb has a passive? Neither Jiordi nor DMSG show it, but Bambi has the simple past (like βάζω I guess).
- Thanks for any help — Saltmarsh. 10:50, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, I did βάζω, βγάζω, and the correspoinding βγαίνωwith temporary manual conjug. I hope that Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'βάζω' will be okperhaps 'βγάζω' would be better, because I did not study very well the following which are not the same conjug-style, but they are related in sense:
- βάζω108, 182 -NOβάζομαι
- μπάζω35 NO-ομαι / μπαίνω179 (where μπαίνω functions as passive sense of μπάζω)
- βγάζω108 -NOβγάζομαι βγάλθηκα βγαλμένος / βγαίνω109 NO-ομαι (functions as pass sense)
- but ξεβγάζω108, yes ξεβγάζομαι182
- παραβγαίνω109
- ανεβάζω35 ανεβαίνω92 ΝΟ-ομαι
- κατεβάζω35 κατεβαίνω92 ΝΟ-ομαι
- the -βιβάζω group
- Thank you so much, perhaps I should concentrate on the regular verbs - there are plenty of them! Thanks agian — Saltmarsh. 05:59, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
πηδάω
I'm sorry Sarri I am going to have to leave this until tomorrow - I'll try to get onto it first thing — Saltmarsh. 12:32, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
transhumance
Do you have a Greek word (or is it periphrastic) for transhumance (the seasonal migration in pastoral societies of sheep etc between lowland and upland areas). I am sure that P Leigh Fermor & Kevin Andrews talked of it in Greece 50-60 years ago. Do you know if an Greek societies still do it? — Saltmarsh. 07:41, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
- O dear, @Saltmarsh I can remember vaguely some words from the στάνη I once visited, and there are some sites on the χειμαδιό and τσοπάνης. There could be many local idiomatic words Leucas Α general verb might be ξεχειμωνιάζω. Give some time to do some searching :) beeeee sarri.greek (talk) 08:07, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
- transhumance is not specific for winter, I understand. translatum has a periphrasis: εποχιακή νομαδική μετακίνηση which is exactly the correct translation.
- Specifically for winter: ξεχειμάζω - ξεχειμωνιάζω with ξεχειμάζω especially for κοπάδια (formal:ποίμνια), and the general ξεχειμωνιάζω.
- The winter-στάνη is el:χειμαδιό and el:ξεχειμαδιό χειμαδιό@DSMG).
- noun:passing the winter. el:ξεχείμασμα and ξεχειμώνιασμα
- And the more formal, general el:διαχειμάζω and el:διαχείμασμα (DSMG)
Dialects: I find ξεχειμάζω, no general word for any nomadic move. Links, just for the record:
- Some good w:Sarakatsani pages in their idiom: and
- Aromanians (in greek:Vlachs) video-documentary by ERT 2015 sarri.greek (talk) 09:43, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- >>Do they still do it?<< Well, I have heard that small herds are moved around, yes. But the life of nomadic societies (as a large group) is long gone (only the gypsies tend to still do it -and not all-. The Vlachs and Sarakatsani have permanent residences, and live like everyone else. They meet once a year or so and have their 'Societies', sing their songs, etc. It is a bit of folklore. Kevin Andrews, our Αντρίκος, would be a little disappointed... sarri.greek (talk) 09:50, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry I missed this (no ping!) it looks very interesting - and thank you for all the research!
{{el-conjug-2nd-A1}}now has "no-a-present" etc — I have to update the docs, and apply the changes to the other templates
αναθέτομαι
I'm sorry, it must appear that I am out to contradict you, but I had to look to try and find where I might have got "αναθέτομαι" from in the first place. This seems the probable source. — Saltmarsh. 05:51, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, yes, I saw it, a moment after i wrote the first 'delete'. That is why i changed it immediately to colloquial (προφ). misconstruction as in DSMG (rarely does he mention such forms). And Georgakas has it too! He has 'αναθέτεται'!! which is a classic misconstruction. People think: θέτω-θέτομαι... But it is θέτω-τίθεμαι.
- There is also another one: 3pl.pres. 'ανατίθονται' instead of ανατίθενται. I did not make a page for it, but it is in my list of frequent misconstructions when I will do the 'θέτω' group. And there is 'ανατίθω' and 'τίθω' too: People think: τίθεμαι is from *τίθω. I just think they should not enter the index of the Category:Greek verbs, but only the Cat:misconstructions. All these, because their grandfather τίθημι has always been irregular.
- I checked the Cat:misspellings and misconstructions, and most of them are true, frequent mistakes. (I was doing κώλυσα-κόλλησα at the time). Some were not: they were just accidental. sarri.greek (talk) 09:15, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
affixes
I' ve been doing some prefixes and interfixes (κατα-, Category:Greek words prefixed with κατα-, and some others. The variation-categories: κατά- κατ-, κάτ- καθ- and so on, are soooo many. @Saltmarsh, Rossyxan do you think this is ok? The ancients are putting them allll in one Category, whatever the version. On the other hand, a reader would like to look up the Category:Greek words by prefix and find all the possible variations. Perhaps κατα- and καθ- are not so obviously 'similar' to them. Salt, Ι just need a confirmation, before I do συν-. sarri.greek (talk) 10:51, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Comment on the interfix categories like Greek words interfixed with -ανα-: unfortunately this is not what an interfix is. An interfix is a meaningless little connecter that is inserted between two morphemes, like English -o-, Russian -о- (-o-), or German -s-. All of the currently listed interfixes should be converted to prefixes:
{{af|el|επι-|-ανα-|λαμβάνω}}→{{af|el|επι-|ανα-|λαμβάνω}}. These are just cases where more than one prefix is piled onto a base morpheme. — Eru·tuon 02:20, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ouch, ok. Of course I ll put them together with prefixes (after all, the do precede something). Thank you Erutuon. Byyyy the way: I have found this weird ἔφραξα] which I know as aorist of φράσσω, but NOT of φράζω. Annnd I have done my lesson2! --sarri.greek (talk) 02:30, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Erutuon,
Done you may delete all the wrong Cats from Category:Greek words by interfix, and I have cleaned up Category:Greek interfixes. I understand what you mean by interfix. I have read some definitions for the greek term ένθημα. It seems there is a 'traditional' and a broader definition. They speak of 'any element' by position, and then, they characterize them, by their role. Which is different from 'interfix' or 'infix'. But you are right, they are just prepositions piled up. --sarri.greek (talk) 03:55, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- An admin will have to handle deleting those pages. The example of ένθημα on Greek Wiktionary looks like what we call an infix: λαβ + <μ> + -αν → λαμβαν. (Infixes are often notated with angle-brackety things.) See nasal infix for more on this particular Indo-European example. — Eru·tuon 06:17, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Erutuon,
- Yes, dear @Erutuon, I am thankful you told me, because I do not wish to make silly mistakes at el.witkionary. We are ~6 editors, none linguist, one prof of Greek and 10 vandals per minute.
- Whattt do you mean, you cannot delete pages?! with all the work you are doing on thousands of modules? ohh. --sarri.greek (talk) 06:34, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Back from my "holiday" and slowly reorienting myself. I've deleted those interfix cats (@Erutuon would infix be an incorrect term?) — Saltmarsh. 06:54, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- OOOooooo hello boss! I missed you @Saltmarsh! When you have time, please check double ppps at
{{el-conjug-1st}}at αγγίζω, στραγγίζω, αποστάζω. Your sarri.greek (talk) 07:03, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- OOOooooo hello boss! I missed you @Saltmarsh! When you have time, please check double ppps at
- Infix is the correct term for something that is inserted inside a morpheme, like μ in λαμβάνω, but not for the prefixes that we were discussing above. I'd guess there probably aren't many, if any, infixes in Greek. — Eru·tuon 07:11, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks @Erutuon — I'm not a linguist so I looked up infix: "To insert a morpheme inside an existing word." Morpheme: "The smallest linguistic unit within a word that can carry a meaning, such as "un-", "break", and "-able" in the word "unbreakable"." Sorry just trying to clarify in my own mind NOT start an argument :) — Saltmarsh. 06:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ω @Erutuon! I found one (which i have written but did NOT remember) at πομφόλυξ. Is the λ an interfix. Thanks again. sarri.greek (talk) 07:16, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
Good morning comrade. Perhaps you can help with this verb which Bambi categorises as deponent. Others including my Oxford el/en dictionary and Kriara here give active forms. Please can you spread any light? — Saltmarsh. 07:20, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hi @Saltmarsh I use it as deponent too, but i see (especially in older dicts) the transtive sense too: I button-off (e.g. my shirt) in order to do some work. So we have
- Babi and Iord -ομαι (Iord has a note: it is usually used in passive sense
- DSMG, Georgakas and Dimitrakos (all older dictionaries that Bab and Iord) have -ώνω too.
- the mediaeval is ανασκομπώνω at Kriaras
- Obviously, it tends to become deponent as time goes by. I would have lemma and conjugation for the whole verb, with comment at def and table active forms: less common or chiefly used as a deponent. And i would add all the above sources for the 'disbelievers'. Would you like me to do it? sarri.greek (talk) 16:11, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
sources
(Speaking of the rare from ανασκουμπώνω) @Saltmarsh rare words, or forms of words, to me, are (o well, the ones I do not know), the ones which cannot be found in DSMG or Babiniotis. It means, they are either older than Standard Modern Greek, or they are rare in general. For some of the lemmata, a reader would doubt the correctness. Could we start a 'practice' of including sources? e.g. ανασκόπω, I cannot find. I know ανασκοπώ (a little rare), I know ανακόπτω. Also for words like: αγκριώνω(!) ανασπάζομαι(priests use this one) ανάβλεμμα ανάμεσος(not common) αγνίζω(usually εξαγνίζω) αγνισμός αλληλοπαντρεύομαι αμαλγαμώνω αμπώχνω(waw) αμφίψωμο(!!) αναγελώ αναγέλασμα ανθρωπομορφίζω αναγάλλια etc. I understand, or i can guess what they mean. But I would like so much to have a source. It takes so long to find them (usually they can be found at Template:R:Dimitrakos 1964 who has allll the older words and of course at your excellent Britannica (which unfortunately I do not have). The thorough online Georgakas has only A, so we cannot have a template for it :(. sarri.greek (talk) 17:03, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
- I have added some refs to ανασκόπω - I will add refs, although I cannot guarantee to be thorough! — Saltmarsh. 20:19, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
- It's ok, I just meant it as a general practice. No need to go back and add sources. @Saltmarsh, are you suuuure it is not ανασκοπώ. sarri.greek (talk) 20:25, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
- I have added some refs to ανασκόπω - I will add refs, although I cannot guarantee to be thorough! — Saltmarsh. 20:19, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you again - F says I never read anything properly — Saltmarsh. 20:38, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
Hope you don't mind me changing the format using {{rel2}} (rel3 and rel4 are available), I thing the output slightly neater. I am never sure how many terms these lists should contain, except perhaps terms like "sax player" could be moved to "sax" — BUT it's all a matter of taste !! — Saltmarsh. 06:21, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know either @Saltmarsh, and of course I don't mind. Yes, the groups can be limited to one basic word. On the other hand, α...ω makes the index full. But it is tooo big.
- That new style of rel3 ufffff i hate it! we lost the Hide/Show thing. Why did they ruin it? sarri.greek (talk) 06:30, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
- Again a matter of taste, I'll change it back if you like. I feel that seeing just a few is good. They do have the advantage that they sort the list into α/ω order automatically. — Saltmarsh. 06:33, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
- OOookkk @Saltmarsh I am a creature of habit. sarri.greek (talk) 06:35, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
κάθομαι
I had forgotten about κάθομαι (and lot more), is the temporary table shown there correct? — Saltmarsh. 07:23, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh done: it is very irregular. I have to look at irregulars! I'm not very well, so, you will excuse me for being a bit lazy... sarri.greek (talk) 10:35, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- Περαστικά! Apologies are never necessary!! — Saltmarsh. 06:04, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- I feel better! @Saltmarsh thanks, and thanks for updating the el-monotonic etc templates. Today is an interesting day for the commons! (I'll be listening). Could you check my english at θυμώνω. sarri.greek (talk) 06:08, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- Looks good — Saltmarsh. 06:11, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- I feel better! @Saltmarsh thanks, and thanks for updating the el-monotonic etc templates. Today is an interesting day for the commons! (I'll be listening). Could you check my english at θυμώνω. sarri.greek (talk) 06:08, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- Περαστικά! Apologies are never necessary!! — Saltmarsh. 06:04, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
Nomenclature of participles
Forgive me for taking my time - we have work being done, and I am steeping myself in participles - unfortunately it will all have gone (the participles that is) in a few day's time! — Saltmarsh. 08:57, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should go back to this - and it will only be used as a HWL template - could you type out like this impossible one:
- βλαμπημένος (vlabiménos) m (feminine βλαμπημένη, neuter βλαμπημένο) perfect passive participle
- or similar - just so that I can see te range of outputs you think necessary. Dont bother about precise fonts etc - just the wording. Thanks — Saltmarsh. 09:40, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh Perhaps the perfect passive participle should not be at the headword. Because, then, one expects 'of ....'. I copy from Category talk:Greek participles
- You know what? We can just do them like the ancients do: put them all under declinable, undeclinable, and never mind other categories.
Actives:
- 1 λύνοντας (lýnontas) indeclinable active present participle
- ψοφώντας (psofóntas) indeclinable active present participle (the same -this is of 2nd conjugation-)
- 2 ισχύων (ischýon) masculine (feminine ισχύουσα, neuter ισχύον) active present participle
- -why feminine, neuter is written out, but m? not?
- 3 λήξας (líxas) masculine (feminine λήξασα, neuter λήξαν) active past participle (this is of λήγω)-ας-ασα-αν. Also some irregulars, where the participle is of active 'set' but the verb is of 'passive' :) :) :)
- (4) .... active perfect participles (learned) --never mind those.
Passives:
- 5 θεωρούμενος (theoroúmenos) masculine (feminine θεωρούμενη, neuter θεωρούμενο) passive past participle (this is of θεωρώ)
- 1stConj -όμενος-όμενη-όμενο {-όμενος-ομένη-όμενο(ν)}substantivized {λυόμενος}. 2ndConjA -ώμενος-η-ο {τιμώμενος}. 2ndB ούμενος-ούμενη-ούμενο {-ούμενος-ουμένη-ούμενο(ν)} {θεωρούμενος}
- 6 λυμένος (lyménos) masculine (feminine λυμένη, neuter λυμένο) passive perfect participle (λύνω)
6a plus with reduplication
- τριμμένος (trimménos) masculine (feminine τριμμένη, neuter τριμμένο) passive perfect participle (this is of τρίβω)
- τετριμμένος (tetrimménos) masculine (feminine τετριμμένη, neuter τετριμμένο) passive perfect participle with reduplication
6b plus with internal augment
- απαρχαιωμένος (aparchaioménos) masculine (feminine απαρχαιωμένη, neuter απαρχαιωμένο) passive perfect participle [here there is only an ancient passive verb)
- απηρχαιωμένος (apirchaioménos) masculine (feminine απηρχαιωμένη, neuter απηρχαιωμένο) passive perfect participle with internal augment
Of the above, the only purely modern participles are
- λύνοντας (lýnontas) indeclinable active present participle
- λυμένος (lyménos) masculine (feminine λυμένη, neuter λυμένο) passive perfect participle AND its pluses.
All the others are inherited ancient participles, with some modifications when inflected. The ONLY indeclinable is λύνοντας type. All the others are declinable. (note: I am not commenting here on periphrastic participles). Other versions (e.g. passive past λυσάμενος) are archaisms.
All participles are also adjectives by default. Some, are also substantivized, which is treated separately. Exception: the λύνοντας: this is like an adverb. --sarri.greek (talk) 10:33, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
Not understanding
Sorry you seem to be saying at the top (above actives) "We can just do them like the ancients do: put them all under declinable, undeclinable, and never mind other categories" but then go on to give longer versions — OR are those just categorisation names? — Saltmarsh. 10:03, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- I just wrote, as in your example, what is expected next to each kind of participle.
- What I am saying, @Saltmarsh:, is that you might drop the whole thing (with so many categories) and just do 2 Cats: Declinable, indeclinable. But if you wish to go on with all these versions, the proposed names of Categories are at Category talk:Greek participles --sarri.greek (talk) 10:11, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks — my inclination is to add the "reduplication" etc as a separate cat statement. ie these types would be in two categories, the first passive past participle etc added by the HWL template and the second separately at the bottom — Saltmarsh. 10:17, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Conclusion ?
I hope the dust has settled!
- the HWL will be simple with no text following the neuter form
- Can we use Category:Greek declinable participles and Category:Greek indeclinable participles as categories
- Category:Greek participles with reduplication and Category:Greek participles with internal an augment can be added manually as appropriate
- What do you think? — Saltmarsh. 06:05, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oh yes, {ping|Saltmarsh}}, keeping it simple, what a relief. Of course: there are only very few participles done. I don't know if they were thousands, perhaps categories would be needed. But for the time being, Category:Greek declinable participles and Category:Greek indeclinable participles
- ++ the passive perfect participle Category:Greek passive perfect participles: it is essential, because it is OVER the reduplicated etc. etc. All the others, can be done in the future. Thaaaanks boss!!!! --sarri.greek (talk) 06:10, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Alternative forms
- 1. re αγάνταρα and αγάνταρε: I think that the usual format might be preferred. But you could ask at WT:BEER if template rather like
{{syn}}(suggest{{alt}}could be used to obtain the format you suggest. - 2. re initial capitals from
{{el-form-of-verb}}this is difficult, you only want a capital letter at the start of the sentence and initial word is not easily forecastable - more complicated code would probably overcome the problem! - 3. I am going to put some words about participles (distilled from your text and Holton) in Wiktionary:About Greek/Draft new About Greek for comment
- @Saltmarsh, placing synonyms (or alts etc) of specific def-lines away, in another part of the page is confusing (to me). The correspondence does not get imprinted in my brain :-) _Never mind about the capitals...
- Something else: for φημίζομαι, with Template:el-conjug-1st-pass-imperfective, there is a passive perfect participle φημισμένος. There is no provision for this kind of participle in the table. I didn't want to do it myself for the fear of making mistakes. --sarri.greek (talk) 08:46, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Συγγνώμη — for my unannounced absence. I will attend to the above and your other activities in a while, meanwhile I'll do something requiring little thought. — Saltmarsh. 09:16, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Επέστρεψα — "placing synonyms (or alts etc) of specific def-lines": AltForms - most of these (in English) apply to the whole word hence remoteness from definitions. Synonyms: it was only a couple of years ago that someone thought of attaching these to the definition (hence
{{sense}}). I hope to get up some speed in a day or so. — Saltmarsh. 04:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Επέστρεψα — "placing synonyms (or alts etc) of specific def-lines": AltForms - most of these (in English) apply to the whole word hence remoteness from definitions. Synonyms: it was only a couple of years ago that someone thought of attaching these to the definition (hence
el-conjug-table-pass-imperfective
I am running a test version of {{el-conjug-table-pass-imperfective}} see:φημίζομαι. If this does evrything that is required I'll update the actual template. I don't know what was going through my mind at the time - probably that if the verb lacked perfective forms it wouldn't have a perf-part. — Saltmarsh. 06:13, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, it is great now. About imperative: usually you have them vertically: the plural under the singular. I know, that here there will be a big empty cell if you do it like the others. It doesn't matter. --sarri.greek (talk) 08:34, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
It really doesn't exist? Google suggests it might. Maybe it's a genitive, locative or whatever form of something? --I learned some phrases (talk) 12:46, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- No, sorry, User:I learned some phrases. Google says: are you looking for 'Μανούσης' . It is possible that a 3rd or 4th generation greek might use an altered name... But it is not found in greek. There is Μανούσος, Μανούσου, Μανούσης, Μανούση. Μανουσάκης etc -usually names from w:Crete. --sarri.greek (talk) 17:22, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
Pages for deletion
- You asked somewhere (it's easier to answer here) about pages for deletion: are they here Category:Requests for deletion in Greek entries, please confirm and I will go ahead.
- But some are misspellings - which should be more correctly called common misspellings. In English we have accomodation a very common misspelling of accommodation (according to Google Ngram it amounted to 3% in 1980!). I think for example that μαυρό μάτι should stay, according to Google (I KNOW not totally reliable, but an indication) this misspelling is more common (13.0k versus 12.3k ) — or have I committed a howler here. — Saltmarsh. 10:40, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh: common misspellings are frequent spellings of people who THINK the word is spelt in some other way. Babiniotis always marks them, so: we know which ones they are. Common misstypings where one's finger slips to a key, is not a common misspelling. I assure you, that I can tell the difference immediately. μαυρό is a mistyping. NO ONE will ever THINK there is such a form. But for μαυρόλυκος and μαυρολύκος (imaginary example) one might NOT KNOW which is correct. Same for -ικός, -ιακός adjectives. And such misspellings would go under PoS 'Misspellings', not the normal PoS. --sarri.greek (talk) 10:53, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- OK OK OK :) but is that category the "list" you were talking about? — Saltmarsh. 11:17, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, i do not remember what you are referring to :(. About χτικιάζομαι ... one COULD imagine it exists: I had to look it up, and noone can promise us, that in 10 years it will not be a word (The reason it does not officially exist, is that χτικιάζω is intransitive, so, it does not need an extra passive form). You may put it at misconsturctions. --sarri.greek (talk) 11:21, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Greek errors
I've been trying to find a way to fix all these, but Benwing has been making such sweeping changes that I can't undo anything without something else breaking instead. —Rua (mew) 14:43, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
It seems that the best fix is to use {{inflection of|el|(word)||passive|perfect|participle}}. —Rua (mew) 14:46, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
- No problem: manual is fine and more precise, because greek participles are a bit weird, Rua. They are not like other participles. Benwing's work with all these templates is herculean! I am not going to do any more of them, until their Categories be crystallized by Greek's administrator Saltmarsh. And then, we will go through all of them. Thank you very much. --sarri.greek (talk) 14:50, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
- I notice that some of the cases of
{{participle of}}appear in etymologies. The template is only meant to be used in definitions, so you probably want to fix that part while you're at it. —Rua (mew) 14:52, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
- I notice that some of the cases of
- @Rua, Benwing2 Mea culpa - using
{{el-participle of}}under etymology "seemed like a good idea at the time", however I think people who make bulk changes have some responsibility to sort out the mess left behind.- I told Sarri some weeks ago I would think about which categories we should use - unfortunately I think this was beyond my competence. Sarri should decide - perhaps her two divisions Declinable and Indeclinable are best?
- The HWL should just indicate headwoprd + feminine and neuter forms?
- Are the lemma (or non-lemma) forms. I have supported Sarri with the lemma option, is this a lost cause — I'm not a linguist although I note Polish participles are categorised as lemma.
{{inflection of}}would perhaps be the best gloss line fix
- The lemma-vs-nonlemma discussion is an ongoing problem that has no clear solution at the moment. The problem is that while participles are verb forms, they are at the same time adjectives. This ambiguity applies not just to Greek, but for many other languages, including English. Some languages on Wiktionary have traditionally gone one way in their treatment, others have gone the other way, but it's not very consistent. I would like to have more consistency in how we treat participles (and gerunds/verbal nouns as well), but so far discussions haven't really given anything workable. You may be interested in the discussion I started regarding falling on WT:TR. —Rua (mew) 11:05, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Rua, Benwing2 Mea culpa - using
- @Rua Thanks for you concision - I now have some idea of where we are, perhaps we shall have to allow each language some leeway. Might not most diminutive forms be considered as non-lemma, after all they tend to follow certain rules (not a serious suggestion). Cheers — Saltmarsh. 05:57, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
So there is an element of "tradition" in the split. — Saltmarsh. 06:07, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Rua Thanks for you concision - I now have some idea of where we are, perhaps we shall have to allow each language some leeway. Might not most diminutive forms be considered as non-lemma, after all they tend to follow certain rules (not a serious suggestion). Cheers — Saltmarsh. 05:57, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
New participle HWL template
The proposed new template is at {{User:Saltmarsh/template2}} with some sample output at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox. I think we should call it {{el-participle}}. This will make it easier to convert existing participles using {{el-part}}, additionally {{en-part}} is used for particles so the change will prevent any confusion. Does it seem OK to you? — Saltmarsh. 07:00, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh
{{el-particle}}for particles, and for participles:{{el-part}}AND{{el-participle}}with a redirect or whatever... (el-part like grc-part, always implies participle) I don't see why en-part should be involved. I wrote some thoughts at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox. My love to F. --sarri.greek (talk) 08:46, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- 1) This is the English Wictionary so I would take the lead from English templates "en-part" is used for particles and other languages should follow. But It's not that important - so I'll leave it.
- 2) I started out with the ides of adding 'tense' categories to the template and then You asked me to keep it simple so I kept the HWL template limited to declinable/indeclinable categorisation as you asked. The other categories can be added at the bottom of the page. Can't that be alright? — Saltmarsh. 04:59, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yes! perfect! @Saltmarsh. --sarri.greek (talk) 05:00, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you @Saltmarsh for all your hard work with changing participle headwords. Small thought: the d paraemeter, could be be default, not necessary: when not included it could be implied, getting Category:declinable participles automatically. Only ind needed to distinguish the indeclinables. Please tell me, if you want me to do any work for the project! Happy month! --sarri.greek (talk) 15:23, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
- Yes! perfect! @Saltmarsh. --sarri.greek (talk) 05:00, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
καθίζοντας
Did you mean to leave the "Verb" header at καθίζοντας or was this an oversight? — Saltmarsh. 05:03, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- I have corrected to Participle, @Saltmarsh, --sarri.greek (talk) 05:05, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Impersonal verbs
Good morning, you mention "impersonal" and "Cat:verb forms". From memory some impersonal verbs derive from extinct - or extremely rare - verbs, and have become "lemmas" - perhaps they have become "verbs" rather than "verb forms". I don't think anyone is going to argue with you whichever you choose,; souds lik the sort of situation where I could choose Option "A" on Monday and "B" on Thursday!
Have a good weekend. Ours is another long w/e with our May Day on Monday - when introduced the govt couldn't bear having it on a mid-week working day and disrupt production :-( — Saltmarsh. 05:24, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
- :-) Here, we do the opposite! Move Sunday such days to Mondays!. Impersonals: some, have all tenses e.g. μπουνατσάρει. I'll do as many as I can, because they are tricccky. Have a nice weekend! --sarri.greek (talk) 05:39, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
Little Miss Dynamite (Brenda Lee)
I have 3 feminine forms: δυναμίτιδα, δυναμίτις (Bambi) and δυναμιτίστρια (Biki) - do you agree? — Saltmarsh. 10:58, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
- Or am I misinterpreting the figurative meaning ? — Saltmarsh. 11:04, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
- OKkk @Saltmarsh I listened to the song at youtube!
- η δυναμίτις, της δυναμίτιδος = katharevousa & formal (inflected as errrr let me find one: ... ἴκτις) = demotic η δυναμίτιδα, της δυναμίτιδας (stress is steady like ηγέτιδα) = masculine o δυναμίτης, του δυναμίτη inflected like αλήτης. Related term: πυρίτιδα which is not made with nitroglycerin, it is a powder, with νίτρο, άνθρακας & θειάφι :)
- Η δυναμιτίστρια is a rare (in real life) feminine of δυναμιτιστής for someone who explodes things, literally and figuratively.
- Verb δυναμιτίζω = mainly is figurative: i undermine, hinder (explode, harm) something @DSMG has only this defintion. Babiniotis also gives the literal meaning: i explode sth. = ανατινάζω Synonym but only passive sense: εκρήγνυμαι I explode (as in I am exploded) --sarri.greek (talk) 17:44, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you so much - please change anything in my entries, I'm not totally happy that I have everything correctly. — Saltmarsh. 06:04, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
Κηφεύς
Hello, here's hoping your are well. A quick one: would Κηφεύς decline Κηφεύς/Κηφέως/Κηφέα/Κηφεύς ? I'm mainly uncertain about the vocative. Thank you — Saltmarsh. 05:48, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, sorry for being a bit absent. The answer is: Κηφέας(Κηφεύς)/Κηφέα(Κηφέως)/Κηφέα/Κηφέα (the learned vocative is too extreme: Κηφεῦ, and I would not include it)
- The -εύς ancient names inflect
- learned/katharevousa: exactly as the ancient Κηφεύς but I wouldn't include it at mod.greek
- demotic: like Αχιλλέας (its learned equivalent is Ἀχιλλεύς)
- mixed: ο Κηφέας (Κηφεύς). του Κηφέα (του Κηφέως). τον Κηφέα. Voc: έ Κηφέα! (Plural would be οι Κηφείς. των Κηφέων. τους Κηφέας. ε Κηφείς! Ι would not include plural for the constellation, but for usual names like Αχιλλέας I would mention the plural in tables).
- αποστολέας versus ἀποστολεύς. A solution to all this mess it to have a demotic table and a katharevousa table (which is exactly like the ancient). --sarri.greek (talk) 06:34, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Uncountables?
I think that it would be a good idea for me to adapt {{el-noun}} to follow the example of {{en-noun}} in allowing:
- carbon (countable and uncountable, plural carbons)
- You raised the point months ago, so I'll attend to it! — Saltmarsh. 09:16, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- The notion of 'uncountable' is hugely different for eng and gre. We may also say: this is uncountable, but it is not an important factor. Mainly: this is abstract. Even the abstracts may still have plurals, except very very few exceptions. I have a list somewhere, but also, if you can imagine a phrase with a plural, then, it has it. --sarri.greek (talk) 11:30, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
I can only guess at the inflections of this word by looking at the Biki article. I came up with Κρατήρ/Κρατήρος/Κρατήρα/??Κρατήρ. Please Μεντόρισσα can you help. — Saltmarsh. 17:18, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, it is the ancient greek name for the constellation, inflection as in κρατήρ without the plural. And it is used today, identical. An astronomer 'could' also use nominative modern-style o Κρατήρας, and the modern genitive του Κρατήρα instead of του Κρατήρος. But the ancient is often used in formal, scientific speech. I would not add any inflection table for it. I would direct to the ancient greek lemma, and the relevant modern lemma κρατήρας. (There are many words like that: ancient names. There has to be a pattern for them.) --sarri.greek (talk) 17:45, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks so much — Saltmarsh. 04:55, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Contribution to Wikilexiko
It seems that you asked me to validate a page about the French word "chaire". I'm sorry, but my level in Greek is very limited, and my contribution to Wikilexiko is stricty restricted to adding translations of Greek words in French where there are none and if I feel confident my answer is correct. I do not want to contribute elsewhere in the Wikilexiko. Besides, the tool is very complex and I have spent quite a lot of time just to find how to send you this message !
- O! Wrooooooo, je suis désolée for your inconvenience. You can always call me just by writing anything at your el.wiktionary talk page. Thank you for all your tradcutions there! I know you are very serious and reliable. It is OK if you do translations only. I appreciate you help very much! --sarri.greek (talk) 14:23, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
αγαλματοποιΐα
Hi— I created αγαλματοποιία and αγαλματοποιΐα at different times and I'm not convinced now that they have different meanings. Is the οιΐ needed, surely the same as οιί — isn't the pronunciation are the same. And doesn't the same thing apply to ανδριαντοποιΐα and ανδριαντοποιία.
- Our TV weather map shows all Europe — NOT GB of course :-( — bright red, I hope that you're not too hot! — Saltmarsh. 06:01, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Dear @Saltmarsh. Oddly we have escaped the heat wave. We have a normal 23-33 or 25-35 Celsius. GB will always be Europe because of Shakespeare and Newton.
- οι (αι or ει ++rare υι) need diairesis (dialytics) only when we need to separate them. αγαλματοποιία and the similar are the correct ones.
- όι is understood it is ο and ι
- οϊ = ο - ι
- οί = To separate it we need oΐ
- ++ υι very rare, (υιός Only βουίζω comes to mind. It could be written βουΐζω, but because the υι is ancient, the ΐ is considered unnecessary.
- οιί is just tricky to the eye. See all the -οιία words @DSMG
- and another matter: -continued at Verbs- --sarri.greek (talk) 12:05, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- ++ addition, for the record about υι --sarri.greek (talk) 12:37, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comprehensive reply, keep well — Saltmarsh. 04:57, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Verbs
--continued from above--@Saltmarsh
Boss, may i mention 3 things which need fixing: (except those adjectives)
- 1. I do not how it escaped my attention: at all verb tables, the subjunctive notes state that is is formed with να, ας, όταν. Όταν does not form the subjunctive. I looked up everywhere. Only να & ας. (we are not speaking here of conditionals, optatives etc)
- 2. although I have to admit: doing the learned and categorizing conjugations will take me more than 2 years, I think that the Appendix:Greek verbs should include, at least what is omitted from the tables something like User:Sarri.greek/verbs#Conjugation_tables. Perhaps a little subpage with the 'omitted'. As it happened the other day, there is always someone who will came and say: why do you not include this and that form? We need a to be able to refer somewhere for an answer.
- 3. The title: Dependent in all tables must somehow be distinguished and separated from the Indicative title. I was thinking of a different colour.
Sorry to bother you. Your tables are fantastic (ohhh a trumpword). Your great gift is the flexibility which allows editors to bring in them, Iordanidou's footnotes, the many learned forms from Babiniotis and the tables@DSMG. Did I say 2 years? probably more... Your sarri.greek (talk) 12:05, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Sarri.greek Not a problem — User:Saltmarsh/template1 contains suggested modifications (do you prefer a particular colour) I have modified the tooltip attached to Dependent (although I'm not totally happy about the words).
- I haven't looked at (2 above) yet. — Saltmarsh. 05:30, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Sarri.greek Not a problem — User:Saltmarsh/template1 contains suggested modifications (do you prefer a particular colour) I have modified the tooltip attached to Dependent (although I'm not totally happy about the words).
- "What is omitted" — why not try your sub-page idea? — Saltmarsh. 10:35, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
What is the modern Greek word for "cord"? Kaldari (talk) 17:44, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Hello @Kaldari. Both for a bow and for a string instrument: χορδή (khordḗ) -fem- (same spelling for modern and ancient greek). The ancient θῶμιγξ (el:θῶμιγξ) did not survive. The simplified spelling would have been *θώμιγξ and its modern appearance would have been *θώμιγγα. For the bow, there are more words: νευρά (neurá) -fem-. Probably more words, I have not looked up the sense, just writing here what is common knowledge for greeks. I am not sure of which sense of 'chord' you are looking for. Let me know, if you are looking for something else. --sarri.greek (talk) 18:07, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply. I was actually asking about sense #1 of cord, i.e. a length of twisted strands. Is that still χορδή (khordḗ)? Would θῶμιγξ be an accurate Ancient Greek translation for that sense? or only for the string of an instrument? Kaldari (talk) 18:18, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Kaldari, (I am now checking what 'strand' means -excuse my bad english-) I think you are looking for sense rope? That would be in ancient greek σχοινίον (skhoiníon) -neu- (), diminutive of σχοῖνος (skhoînos) -masc- () which was also a plant. Mod.Greek σχοινί (schoiní) or σκοινί (skoiní) -neu- (and the modern plant: σχίνος).
- It is interesting, that some great greek philologists when translating the ancient phraseHerodotus they were wearing on their heads crowns of θώμιγγος they avoid the literal of rope and translate crowns of flax assuming that the rope was made of flax. --sarri.greek (talk) 18:35, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Kaldari for your ancient 'length of twisted strands' I think both θῶμιγξ, but more commonly σχοῖνος (skhoînos) is appropriate. (sorry for forgetting to reply to the actual question) --sarri.greek (talk) 18:39, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply. I was actually asking about sense #1 of cord, i.e. a length of twisted strands. Is that still χορδή (khordḗ)? Would θῶμιγξ be an accurate Ancient Greek translation for that sense? or only for the string of an instrument? Kaldari (talk) 18:18, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
αβγατίζω
Sorry to query αβγατίζω, we have it as defective — yet my Μπαμπι (3rd ed) gives "αβγατίστηκα". — Saltmarsh. 11:16, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, @Saltmarsh done. As a general policy: if one source gives an extra form, we include it, even if all the others do not. With a note. Thanks for bringing it up. hhhhhhhhhh heat wave here. --sarri.greek (talk) 15:54, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Egyptian for Koine
@Erutuon, Mahagaja, it is none of my business, but is there another term for Egyptian (hellenistic koine period#1?) It looks so weird: egyptian! I know, it is a known term. But are there any alternatives? Alexandrian? or just Early Koine? Like, period byz2 is called Constantinopoletan, not 'turkish' -it could be Late Byz. O well, never mind if it is not possible. --sarri.greek (talk) 21:29, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- Maybe Alexandrian would be OK, but your parallel isn't really accurate. "Turkish" would be an anachronism because the country around Constantinople wasn't called Turkey at the time, but "Egyptian" is not an anachronism because the country around Alexandria was in fact called Egypt at the time. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:38, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- Of course, i was exaggerating, @Mahagaja. It is just psychological: the word 'aegyptian' brings in mind hieroglyphics, or copitc or well... something egyptian. --sarri.greek (talk) 06:43, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Dependent
Copied from User:Saltmarsh/template1: Perhaps a special colour for Mood-associated tense? Leaving out the 'dependents"? --sarri.greek (talk) 17:31, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- Can we deal with this point by point, leaving aside the colour for the moment.
- 'Leaving out the 'dependents"?' — do you mean the section heading next to "Present" (see
{{User:Saltmarsh/template1a}}? I think this should stay (Mackridge has it as a section heading, same as Present, Perfect, etc) — Saltmarsh. 05:21, 11 July 2019 (UTC)- @Saltmarsh. All the tenses in the columns are in mood:Indicative. Present (Indicative is assumed). Imperfect (Indicative). Future Simple (Indicative) etc. So, the title 'Indicative' associates to all of them (which is why i thought of a similar colour). Except the Dependent: this is not Dependent (Indicative). It is not a mood at all. --sarri.greek (talk) 05:36, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, I brought back the original colours of Tenses, with the exception of Depe at User:Saltmarsh/template1. Depe either green, or whatever colour, or just italics?... something differentiating it from Indicative. Sorrry, I cannot think of something else. But its tooltip explains things. --sarri.greek (talk) 06:08, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh. All the tenses in the columns are in mood:Indicative. Present (Indicative is assumed). Imperfect (Indicative). Future Simple (Indicative) etc. So, the title 'Indicative' associates to all of them (which is why i thought of a similar colour). Except the Dependent: this is not Dependent (Indicative). It is not a mood at all. --sarri.greek (talk) 05:36, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- 'Leaving out the 'dependents"?' — do you mean the section heading next to "Present" (see
- OK - I gave two colours as alternatives, green might be preferable to pink - but I ain't fussy! Also rather than the ➤ tooltip perhaps replace it with a dagger† footnote — The dependent is a mood or a tense, it is used with a particle to form θα, να etc to create other forms such as the perfective subjunctive, and future tenses.
Dear boss!
- 1) Could i start erasing 'όταν' from the subjunctive of all tables?
- appendix (thank you @Saltmarsh for starting the Appendix formation. The boxes for the examples are a too big, and they are an example.
- 2) would you like me to add the Appendix link at all heads? as in User:Saltmarsh/template1. Show me one example, in the way you like it, and I could add them to all.
- 3) I like your solution Dependent with italics and a different tooltip icon (this will show sufficiently that there is something different about Dependent. .
Thank you! PS The categorizations of verbs will move a bit slowly: I do not wish to do it before being sure of the style. sarri.greek (talk) 08:33, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
- Please go ahead with all three - I am sorry that I have got sidetracked populating the verb appendix tables. And let me know if you want a hand. — Saltmarsh. 08:58, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
Verb appendix
Not easy (I can rewrite text more than a few times on my own!) - I think the Appendix link on the conjugation table header should be removed (1) certainly until it is in a more final form (2) but mainly because clicking on the table header to open it - I normally keep tables closed - takes you to the appendix which is the lst thing you want :) — Saltmarsh. 06:14, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- Ι understand @Saltmarsh your line of thinking. But i have seen it at ancient verbs, at french verbs, also at other wiktionaries. How is it possible for a reader to check what is going on if the Appendix is not available? It could be shorter: just Appendix. I find it very helpful when i read verbs of languages I do not know. The examples, especially for prefix+verb are explanatory, and grammars deal with compounds with very very little notes. When we say this verbs conjugates like e.g. στρέφω-έστρεφα, and the reader sees καταστρέφω-κατέστρεφα, when he would have expected καταστρέφω-εκατάστρεφα. And so on. I do not think that the Appendix should become a Grammar-text book. But, please reconsider. OF COURSE it is under construction: I do not think it needs more text. It is just waiting for the Groups. Which I would like to add, when I will have done bigger chunks: e.g. all the labials, all the -νω, etc. sarri.greek (talk) 06:27, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- I agree the link is useful - perhaps inside the table as a footer, I dont think anyone would want to look at the appendix without first viewing the table. — Saltmarsh. 06:35, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- This would be nice! Thanks, @Saltmarsh. Sorry to bother your with this. But as I go on, I felt I needed the Appendix to start being formed. sarri.greek (talk) 06:39, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- I agree, and I YOUR input is irreplaceable. I hope I am not being too propertarian in wanting that link moved to the footer of the conjugation table. — Saltmarsh. 05:08, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, at the notes it would be great too. (Thank you @Saltmarsh, you are so kind). Make one, and I copy to the rest. --sarri.greek (talk) 05:21, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- I agree, and I YOUR input is irreplaceable. I hope I am not being too propertarian in wanting that link moved to the footer of the conjugation table. — Saltmarsh. 05:08, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- This would be nice! Thanks, @Saltmarsh. Sorry to bother your with this. But as I go on, I felt I needed the Appendix to start being formed. sarri.greek (talk) 06:39, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- I agree the link is useful - perhaps inside the table as a footer, I dont think anyone would want to look at the appendix without first viewing the table. — Saltmarsh. 06:35, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
καταστρέφω shows what roughly what I mean. — Saltmarsh. 05:47, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry for delay -I was in the kitchen- @Saltmarsh. Maybe with no text? Isnt' it obvious? I did two more options. at Template:el-conjug-table At the bottom, or at the pink column. sarri.greek (talk) 06:05, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Both look good - you choose! — Saltmarsh. 06:07, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Our edits clashed! By the way, I hope you suffered no internal damage after the earthquake. — Saltmarsh. 06:09, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- They are three! @Saltmarsh Please, choose one!!! You are the boss! No, the earthquake was not as big as the 1999. No plates broken, no pictures moved on the wall! Thank you for your concern. sarri.greek (talk) 06:11, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, lovely. Would you like me to copy? PS I do not have a template for my username.
{{Sarri.greek}}so i do not get your messages. Should I make one? I do not know how... sarri.greek (talk) 06:26, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, lovely. Would you like me to copy? PS I do not have a template for my username.
- They are three! @Saltmarsh Please, choose one!!! You are the boss! No, the earthquake was not as big as the 1999. No plates broken, no pictures moved on the wall! Thank you for your concern. sarri.greek (talk) 06:11, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Our edits clashed! By the way, I hope you suffered no internal damage after the earthquake. — Saltmarsh. 06:09, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Both look good - you choose! — Saltmarsh. 06:07, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- If I leave a message on your talk page you should be informed (ie I shouldn't need to use
{{ping|Sarri.greek}}). But are you talking about 'edit summaries' ? I've been putting ] in edit summaries -I now realise this doesn't work!!. Something you can teach me :) What are you doing to get my attention when you edit something!!!! — Saltmarsh. 06:40, 21 July 2019 (UTC)- @Saltmarsh, I write
]sarri.greek (talk) 06:51, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, I write
- If I leave a message on your talk page you should be informed (ie I shouldn't need to use
Ευχαριστώ πολύ, I didn't read the original (or anything else!) instruction properly — Saltmarsh. 06:57, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Οκ @Saltmarsh, I moved the Appendix to notes at all table-Templates. THHHhanks for the favour! sarri.greek (talk) 07:07, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Declension of πανδοχέας
{{el-nM-εας-εις-1}} — Just creating πανδοχέας and I notice that βικιέξικό has the 2nd gen.sg (ingnored by Bambi) although Google shows that it is common and Holton says it's "very formal". Looking at other nouns declining like 'βασιλέας' I notice that some have the extra form on Βικι:-
- Does this apply to all of them ?
- Should we add it to the template or create another?
- Or do we ignore it and perhaps add it using "notes=" where necessary ?
- Thank you — Saltmarsh. 11:09, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, all these come from ancient -εύς masculines, genitive -έως. Like συγγραφεύς συγγραφέως. Katharevousa used -εύς, -έως, and some people (conservatives) still use them. For Holton's very formal, scribe 'katharevousa', 'ancient'.
- A note could be added:
- Older forms: singular nominative: {{{1}}}εύς, genitive: {{{1}}}έως
- Also, at many other declensions e.g.
- I prefer the term Older form e.g. at various inflection pages (συγγράφομε and all the 1st plural -ομε), instead of 'Katharevousa', for the reason that the form goes further back in time. Note, that the 'older', or Kath form has been written in texts in polytonic.
- PS. Creating separate inflection tables for Katharevousa would be possible. The only reason we do not do it, is a) they are identical to ancient without dual and without prosody. and b) to avoid being wrongly accused of promoting Kath. sarri.greek (talk) 11:50, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you — Saltmarsh. 11:09, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps this is the best way of dealing with the matter? — Saltmarsh. 04:36, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh: perfect. I would mention the older nominative ...εύς, which is the 'cause' and the 'mother' of this genitive, but... it is not entirely necessary. sarri.greek (talk) 14:12, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps this is the best way of dealing with the matter? — Saltmarsh. 04:36, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
Changes to verb appendix
Hope that all is well, it is here. I know that you have lots to so at home and on Βικι, so this is not asking for more help with this appendix! I have created some guiding notes on Appendix:Greek verbs/Documentation, I hope that they are clear. This may seem a very unilateral thing to do, but necessary. I started out sketchily in 2015, so I wouldn't want to make any radical changes - hope that is alright. Ain't life wonderful - having an idiot on both sides of the Atlantic :) — Saltmarsh. 10:10, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
PS There seem to be a number of derivative verbs on Βικλεξικό (αλευρο-) being one example, there is very little attestation of el:αλευροσταυρώνω for example. Are these "reliable"? — Saltmarsh. 10:16, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, thank you for documentation: ok, for variants I will link WITHIN the appendix, not directly to the lemma. It will take a long time to complete it, but it is great. You have included many verbs which I saw for the first time! I learn a lot!
- _1 words with αλευρο and other rare ones @Βικι: they were initially added by bots, based on certain databases, I guess. Some of them are vernacular, and difficult to find in dictionaries. I would add them only if checked one by one, at Dimitrakos dictionary (they cannot be found at DSMG or Babiniotis which include only Standard Modern Greek).
- _2. I am not very busy at Βικι -I have completed some work with templates/categories, now waiting to see if it will ever be accepted; so I can concentrate on the verbs@en much more.
- (_3. A thought for the future: Have you ever considered a full 4stem description at headword line:
lemma, past:xxx, passive:xxx, p.past:xxx, p.perf.participle:xxx. As in the appendix. It is the full identity of a verb, -plus some imperfects which are characteristic of a conjugation-. Truth is: with variants it may become too long. Perhaps something like a box? examples el:παίζω, and extremely long: el:κάνω. But @el they decided to split the verb active/passive and I couldn't persuade them to put conjugations at the main page. - _4.I am watching the talks... trying to guess what the future is going to be. Your sarri.greek (talk) 10:47, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
- I started looking to extend
{{el-verb}}with a participle option some time ago - and it got shelved "so much to do so little time" as the White Rabbit said. Note made for a resurrection. — Saltmarsh. 05:21, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
- I started looking to extend
αν-/ανα-
Problem: There should be 2 prefix Categories: αν- privative, and αν- from ανα- (since we do them by form). Answer: I don't know. Would having two sub-categories of Category:Greek words prefixed with αν- solve the problem? They would have to be added manually. — Saltmarsh. 05:08, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you @Saltmarsh. I tried to count them, and the αν- from ανα- I thhhhink are much less. So manual adding would not be a problem. So: default is the an- privative. Excellent idea. I ll do some trials tomorrow. sarri.greek (talk) 05:14, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- Both types would be in the "common" category (since this is assigned by the etymology template) which would have a note at the top pointing out that it was made up of two types (suitably named). Category:Greek words prefixed with αν- would need a note at the top pointing out the cat for forms where an -α- had vbeen dropped. It might be worthwhile asking at Wiktionary:Grease pit, there might be a more subtle way of achieving this automatically. — Saltmarsh. 05:23, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, Thank you. The ancients are placing ALL the formations of suffixes under the main Category only. e.g. ἀντι- ἀντί- ἀνθ- all go at Category:ἀντι-. (our Cat αντι-.) Perhaps we could try a manual Category:Greek words suffixed with αν- from ανα- (example: αναγορεύω. (αν- from ανα- + αγορεύω) --sarri.greek (talk) 05:35, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if it would be a good idea, or even if it would work very well - the categories assigned by the etym template could both redirect to your suggested "αν- from ανα-" category — Saltmarsh. 05:45, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh Then, we could just place them all togther at the usual αν- Category with no comment! One should understand which is the privative αν- and which is not! sarri.greek (talk) 05:52, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- Good idea! — Saltmarsh. 06:00, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Dictionary abbreviations
Help please:—
- Μπαμπινιώτη has some verbs thus: "απέλθω (να/θα)" — what does this indicate (? dependent forms only in the active ?)
- I have always assumed (but have never confirmed) that it is customary for authors to be shown on title pages etc in the genitive.
- Thank you yet again form your advice and information! — Saltmarsh. 05:54, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh 1. In dictionaries of languages with lots of irregular inflectional forms with different stems, we sometimes see a form like απελθ.. → απέρχομαι (I exit). Deponent (passive only) verb: από, here απ-+έλθω from απ-έρχομαι. Yes it is the perfective dependent of passive past (να/θα implies it) = passive aorist of ancient greek ἀπέρχομαι. The reader is not expected to guess the stem απερχ, for a word beginning wtih απελθ. Ηe would never look there. Examples: θέλω να απέλθω = I want to depart. θα απέλθω = I will go away.
- 2. It was an old tradition the genitive for authors. The prepositiion 'by' was asssumed as in a phrase like: This books was written ὑπό + genitive. Now dated. Today, the name of the author is written in the nominative. sarri.greek (talk) 07:25, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks so much - I was thinking of adding an asterisk to the †‡ annotations to direct the user when it is particularly recommended that the verb's entry (when it exits) should be viewed. — Saltmarsh. 10:27, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- In what way, @Saltmarsh? Because of rarity? irregularity? sarri.greek (talk) 10:37, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- I guess all of those - anyway something for the future!! — Saltmarsh. 11:34, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- In what way, @Saltmarsh? Because of rarity? irregularity? sarri.greek (talk) 10:37, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks so much - I was thinking of adding an asterisk to the †‡ annotations to direct the user when it is particularly recommended that the verb's entry (when it exits) should be viewed. — Saltmarsh. 10:27, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
άρμα
σ' ευχαριστώ που έφτιαξες το λήμμα, αυτοί οι admins είναι ό,τι χειρότερο -Euphranor 15:24, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Euphranor, Thank you. It is difficult to tell if anonymous guests are serious about their changes. Reverting is the only safe solution for an admin.
- translation.gre: Ευχαριστώ, Είναι δύσκολο να καταλάβει κανείς αν ένας ανώνυμος επισκέπτης σοβαρολογεί κάνοντας αλλαγές. Η ανάκληση είναι η μόνη ασφαλής κίνηση που μπορεί να κάνει ένας διαχειριστής. sarri.greek (talk) 14:18, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
New HWL template for verbs
Please will you have a look at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox. I have got so far with a new format. At present it will only work with active lemmas. It won't produce annotating text or place the verb in special categories.
- The "past" form may be blanked with a hyphen
- "imperfect" tense forms will only appear when there is no "past" argument
- Passive forms will appear in brackets, except that a "ppp" form will appear without brackets in the absence of the "passive"
- I think I have shown all the combinations likely. — Saltmarsh. 11:05, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, thank you. I took the liberty of writing some ideas at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox --sarri.greek (talk) 13:28, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, and a trial template at User:Sarri.greek/template3 sarri.greek (talk) 22:19, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should leave it as it is for the time being! — Saltmarsh. 18:39, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
Demonyms - capitalisation
Hello — Ολλανδός/ολλανδός, Ολλανδή/ολλανδή, etc — I hope I haven't asked you this before (I may have done in relation to language names). Using Google I find it impossible to discover whether lowercase demonyms are the norm or not, perhaps normal practice is undergoing transition. Please can you help, thanks. — Saltmarsh. 11:20, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
- Hello @Saltmarsh -sorry for not being very active lately-. Demonyms = uppercase. For conuntries and cities: Ολλανδός. Άγγλος. Λονδρέζος Παριζιάνος. In Greek they are NOT proper nouns though. They are normal nouns, but with uppercase.
- The adjectives are lowercase: αγγλικός. λονδρέζικος.
- Languages are lowercase αγγλικά (except in Babiniotis who chooses to write them uppercase, but he is not the standard) sarri.greek (talk) 12:13, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
- Advancing senility! I look at a word, I edited 10 days ago, no memory of it at all. I am assured that these lapses are normal. Thanks so much — Saltmarsh. 12:17, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oh a subsidiary question!! Do the same rules apply to regional "demonyms" like ανατολίτης the person from the Orient s opposed to the Anatolian. — Saltmarsh. 12:20, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
- Ι can assure you, @Saltmarsh that all Greeks are puzzled on that, very often. Ανατολίτης is the correct. Oriental=From the Orient. (I had to look it up to make sure! ανατολίτικος= oriental (in style) Also, there is the influence of the English of capitatlization which perplexes things in our minds. Personally, in my private writings, i have dropped uppercase altogether! sarri.greek (talk) 12:24, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
- You could move the ανατολίτης to Ανατολίτης sarri.greek (talk) 12:25, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
- Ι can assure you, @Saltmarsh that all Greeks are puzzled on that, very often. Ανατολίτης is the correct. Oriental=From the Orient. (I had to look it up to make sure! ανατολίτικος= oriental (in style) Also, there is the influence of the English of capitatlization which perplexes things in our minds. Personally, in my private writings, i have dropped uppercase altogether! sarri.greek (talk) 12:24, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oh a subsidiary question!! Do the same rules apply to regional "demonyms" like ανατολίτης the person from the Orient s opposed to the Anatolian. — Saltmarsh. 12:20, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Dropping uppercase - SMS texting - you should see some texts that my niece writes!! — Saltmarsh. 12:26, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
- I fixed Ανατολίτης @Saltmarsh. My non-capitalizing was a decision i took after learning arabic which has no capital letters: very practical. I only capitalize beginning of sentence and names of people. sarri.greek (talk) 12:29, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
25 Νοεμβρίου
- re our discussion at Template talk:el-conj-pass-άζ-άλθ: I understand why items on our tree of evolution are of interest, however someone will come along in six months or a year and say that they should be deleted. This is done in order to prevent the slow accumulation of the detritus of unused templates.
- Last but not least "Χρόνια πολλά!" - if that is the appropriate salutation. — Saltmarsh. 06:04, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
- Ο! Thank you @Saltmarsh! About deleting: ok, you are right. I may copy one or two, as a sentimental reference :) sarri.greek (talk) 06:07, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Good morning! Please could you help with the definitions for this word, it is absent from my two big dictionaries but appears in the pocket one. Particularly Defn#1 which says "ο μη ορισμένος" - does it mean uncertain !? And thank you once again :) — Saltmarsh. 12:11, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh. Rare word. I find it at
{{R:Dimitrakos 1964}}. Does your dictionary say «ο μη οργισμένος» = not angry. The word is the opposite of participle ερεθισμένος (inflamed, figuratively: excited, annoyed, angry) of verb ερεθίζω. Your translation "uninflamed" is correct: literal. An ανερέθιστη wound. Figuratively, a calm character, someone who is not easily irritated. sarri.greek (talk) 12:24, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
Katharevousa inflections
I have created {{el-rfinfl}} so that Katharevousa terms can be categorised separately (Category:Requests for inflections in Greek Katharevousa noun entries from the others — and that those requiring inflection tables are evident. I hope that you think this is useful, it will be form me. — Saltmarsh. 05:17, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh, Katharevousa and all its texts are polyonic (before 1976 -end of Kath- and certainly before 1982 -beginning of monotonic-). It may be transcribed in monotonic, as every text may be written in monotonic. Its inflections are exactly the ancient, without dual number and without prosody. It has dative case, so, an addition of a modern inflection is not precise.
- Most words exist in ancient greek: a note with a link to the ancient inflection is sufficient (see κοινόν (koinón) with ref.). Or, I would use the grc-decl template with a parameter: without dual.
- Other words were specifically katharevousa 'constructions' (like αγυιόπαις = ἀγυιόπαις, ἀερολιμήν), but they are 'transferred'/used also in modern greek as 'formal' style (σταγών)
- At el.wiktionary, we have not dealt yet with the issue of katharevousa and polytonic: there is only a note for them and a Category with its specific words. It is understood that the inflection is the ancient. sarri.greek (talk) 06:48, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
- PS note: for words like ανευφημία. When a word does not exist in dictionaries of StandardModGre like DSMG and Babiniotis, it is rare, old and dated. It does not occur in ancient greek, but ἀνεύφημος does.
{{R:Dimitrakos 1964}}has ἀνευφημία, and Georgakas has many of these extremely rare words (ανευφημώ) but he did not complete his dictionary beyond B. sarri.greek (talk) 07:00, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, there's a lot to do there. My intention was directed towards separating the sheep (νέα} fromn the goats (the rest whose inflections can be dealt with later - and which are totally beyond my competence!). — Saltmarsh. 07:29, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
"unconfined by dictionaries"
Morning from gloomy England (not the weather!). I have just created ανισότιμος and looked for υπέρτιμος which seems to be absent from my dictionaries, nevertheless - as you might expect - it's very common. Also υπότιμος but much less common. Do you think they are permissible words ? — Saltmarsh. 11:31, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I feel the same too. // All these words are rare. I have never used them and I need some time to look them up. sarri.greek (talk) 11:34, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh υπέρτιμος = very precious, someone who is extremely valued. Dated mediaeval word ὑπέρτιμος used rarely in modern times as προσφώνηση for high-rank priests. These are not rare: υπερτιμώ Ι overestimate, participle υπερτιμημένος: valued more than it deserves. sarri.greek (talk) 11:40, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks once again - I hope that you ALWAYS feel free to modify my entries !!! — Saltmarsh. 12:14, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
- You are very kind @Saltmarsh. Next year, i shall continue with the verbs. And.. i have so much to do at el.wikt too :( too many things need correction.) I am alawys indebeted to you for all the things you taught me. sarri.greek (talk) 12:35, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Saltmarsh υπότιμος, I cannot find anywhere. sarri.greek (talk) 12:39, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks once again - I hope that you ALWAYS feel free to modify my entries !!! — Saltmarsh. 12:14, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
- Your work here is invaluable and much appreciated — I can see some of the much to be done on el.wikt, and sorry that I don't contribute more there. — Saltmarsh. 07:37, 16 December 2019 (UTC)