User talk:Sarri.greek/2018

Sarri.greek ♫

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Χαίρομαι που γύρισες! Καλή χρονιά.

ΥΓ. Μπορεί "χαιρετίσματα" να χρησιμοποιείται ως επιφώνημα ("Χαιρετίσματα!"); Προσπαθώ να μεταφράσω best wishes στα ελληνικά.--Per utramque cavernam (talk) 15:48, 5 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Ωχ, ξέχνησα >>ξέχασα<< να αναφέρω πως είμαι User:Barytonesis! --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

2018 wishes @Barytonesis:! No, χαιρετίσματα is not 'best wishes'. There is no literal equivalent. Ευχές για... τον καινούριο χρόνο. or in letters/more formal: Τις καλύτερες/θερμές/θερμότερες ευχές (μου/μας) για... And what's this name now? You will move to latin? I seek you here, I seek you there, and cannot find you anywhere. Bary, I was thinking of your next name. I've got a good one. sarri.greek (talk) 23:53, 5 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Πω πω! Συγνώμη, δεν μιλάω ελληνικά αρκετά συχνά και ξεχνάω οτιδήποτε έμαθα...

No, I'll keep working on Greek, it's just that I like to change usernames from time to time.

Ποια είναι η πρότασή σου; Περίεργος είμαι. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Your greek is excellent @Barytonesis: Do i need to reply at another name? O, don't be some other name. Shakespeare was wrong. rose and τριαντάφυλλο are completely different. One more antimetathesis! δωράκινο/δοράκινο (Koine/Byz) - ροδάκινο = peach (i am trying this). And you have ήμερος - ήρεμος = tamed - calm at you pairs? As for the name...I had a greek deity in mind. It could become your final name, one day/Θα μπορούσε να γίνει κάποτε το τελικό όνομά σας. Το όνομά του αρχίζει από Πρ. But, i understand, there are many more names you will acquire until then. sarri.greek (talk) 21:55, 7 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

I think I might be in danger of over complicating things. Please can you comment - I'm thinking of:

1) having just one perfect tense form - ie omitting alternatives (eg "είμαι γραμμένος")

2a) omitting alternative and two-word imperatives (eg "να γράφεσαι")

2b) giving the editor the choice leaving an imperative blank or replacing the default with an alternative

This is to simplify life for editors and make template maintenance easier. —

Saltmarsh. 07:59, 21 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes @Saltmarsh: I am looking now at your User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox which version? a.#1?

Yes - now under Template 1 - I'll deal with most the rest tomorrow. — Saltmarsh. 19:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

1) I think είμαι,ήμουν γραμμένος is essential

OK - will do — Saltmarsh. 19:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

2a) yes. A note at word Imperative (Imperative can also be expressed with subjunctive would be enough. And when blanks, one can ref to this note.

I really think that people should rely on the Greek Grammar for this - I'm anxious not to overload with too many notes. — Saltmarsh. 19:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

BUT you need to write singular 2, 3 and plural 2, 3 under 'imperative'. 2b) yes, one would need to add all sorts of little notes eventually.

I don't understand - don't we only have sing and plural (and only 2nd person)? — Saltmarsh. 19:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Another thing to consider (well, for greeks) The terminology of eng. is SO different. Gerund (too latin). Dependent (you had a nice box for this one). I need to check more.

The "Deponent" is linked to the Glossary, I'll do the same for "Gerund" - I don't think we have an English term. If you want the Greek translations to be different, please list them (it takes me a "month of Sundays" to read Greek).— Saltmarsh. 19:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

I am looking at this new schoolgrammar for young children (10-12yo) by Philippaki, introducing for the first time in Greece the new modern terms. Also terms in Holton.Compr and with Iordanidu verbs. I also keep in mind the correspondence with the terms in ancient greek tables γράφω (gráphō). A user might need to find the equivalents.

to be dealt with later! — Saltmarsh. 19:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Give me 2 or 3 versions to compare. I am thinking again of horizontal. Saves space for terms (longer words). Copypaste is possible only in horizontal (for users). Also, you may make different hide-show frames, splitting the hyper-table. Just a thought. Don't want to upset your line of word=work. sarri.greek (talk) 08:39, 21 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

about 1) είμαι γραμμένος. On second thought, never mind with it (it can be described at lemma γραμμένος). There IS a slight difference with έχω γράψει. sarri.greek (talk) 09:29, 21 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Καλησπέρα. Φαίνεται να υπάρχει κάποια δυσλειτουργία στα interwiki. Δεν ξέρω αν παρατηρείται σε άλλα λήμματα. Πήγα να μετονομάσω και τα δύο λήμματα, μήπως κάποιο είναι με άλλον χαρακτήρα γραμμένο ή έχει κάποιο κενό στην αρχή ή στο τέλος. Δεν ήταν αυτό το πρόβλημα. Κι ούτε νομίζω πως επηρέασε η ανακατεύθυνση που είχε εισαγάγει κάποιος χρήστης. Δεν ξέρω τι άλλο να υποθέσω!… Όντως, μας ταλαιπωρούν αυτά τα αβγά! Svlioras (talk) 13:28, 24 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Απίστευτο @Svlioras:. Θα το βρούνε... (αν είδατε τη συζήτησή τους). No, I have not spotted any other problems with interwikis to el.wiktionary so far. I'll keep you posted, if something new comes up! Thanks. /Όχι, δεν έχω επισημάνει άλλα προβλήματα με interwiki προς το el.wiktionary έως τώρα. Θα σας κρατώ ενήμερο. Ευχαριστώ/ sarri.greek (talk) 13:46, 24 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

I've created a few Greek entries since yesterday. Could you check that everything is correct? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:21, 24 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Impressive list. ΟΚ @Per utramque cavernam:X, I've got somewhere a bilingual glossary for phonetics but not so many. Are you using this one @greek-lang?

Interesting έκκροτος. It is a contemporary word made for phoneticians. There is ancient ἔκκρουσις etc. Babiniotis does NOT give an etymon. There is anc. verb ἐκκρούω = I strike out, I remove > έκκρουση (silencing of one of 2 vowels as in έκθλιψη, etc). And there is the anc.(and mod) noun κρότος (>verb κροτέω/κροτῶ) = I make a clack sound. Source.Hofmann. (Both κρ- elements are ηχοpoetic (eng onomatopoetic?) Source.NotSoGreat.) But for your plosives, you need κρότος. Ι I'll come back to you. sarri.greek (talk) 18:43, 24 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

• The progress to date can be seen at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox - comments welcome.
• I've mentally noted your comments about "αλυκή", "salt marsh" etc. Looking at views of Missolonghi and so on I thought "those aren't salt marshes". I then realised our tides are larger than yours. Our sea level rises and falls in my bit of England by about 5 metres twice a day - so of course things look totally different here! — Saltmarsh. 07:25, 1 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Dear @Saltmarsh: (tides, or no tides -as in Mediterranea-, the άλας is what matters in life!), looking at your verb-Sandbox:

1. I like your new structure: Present-Past-Future (vertical) & Active + Mediopassive or passive (horizontally)
2. yes, your compound imperatives are Great (εμπνέω, διευρύνω -tricky ones-, παραλείπω, ανασταίνω, αναδιοργανώνω)
3. subjunctive is supposed to be over Imperative? (Sorry, the other day, i confused 2nd 3rd πρόσωπα at imperatives, from ancient greek)
4. are you going to write fully the forms with auxiliary: έχω (έχεις, έχει, έχουμε έχετε, έχουν) + present indic...bla blah?
5. For the 'Other Forms' section: i liked your old little box for participle and infinitive(Non-finite)... (I have been reading a lot these past days about verb-terms, about Participles. I will not tire you with details. The discussion in Greece is long (National Conference for terminology, endless blogs and posts about schoolgrammars etc). The transition from traditional grammar-terms to the modern ones is happening NOW (later better than never. And your tables are going to play a vital role to this transition for students of greek. Compare with the trad. el.wikt tables at el:λύνω. Secondary-grade students are being tought traditional-grammar terms, and primary-grade students contemporary with Philippaki's grammar (as in Holton.Philippaki et al). She deals with participles outside the verb-ables. Calls the Present-participle: 'Indeclinable Participle (resembling an adverb)' and the Perfect Participle 'Declinable Participle' (resembling an adjective). The feeling I got from the discussions about Participles, was that the term 'Gerund' (which is being discussed alongside 'adverbial participle' etc) is not widely accepted. I have always associated it with latin, not greek. Perhaps the feeling of the word in english is different. The -οντας participles are not noun-behaving forms, so why 'gerundia'? Owww please, do call it some other name! :) Of course, it is your decision.
6. PoS at participles-behaving-as-adjectives: another long discussion in greece. Schoolbooks are accused of being inconsistent and contradicting. Your solution was great (adding both CATs at the pages). AFTER you decide what to call the 2 types of participles in your tables, don't we need to go to all participle entries and make the description according to your table? I could do that. e.g. Could you choose from the expressions:
   1. λύνοντας. XXXX of verb λύνω
   2. λυμένος. Perfect participle of passive voice of verb λύνω
   3. λυμένος. Perfect participle of λύνομαι, passive voice of verb λύνω
   4. and possibly add under PoS: 'functioning as adjective' or something
7. By the way...do you know that at the moment, lots of imperatives are published wrong (compounds), and that λύω has λυνμένος as Perfect Participle...
8. just for the record: perfective = simple στιγμιαίος and imperfective = continuous εξακολουθητικός? Philippaki has 'εξακολουθητικός'=continuous (θα λύνω, imperative: λύνε), 'συνοπτικός=simple (fut. θα λύσω, imperative 'λύσε') and συντελεσμένος=perfective? (fut. θα έχω λύσει).

The divorce between traditional greek grammar and contemporary understanding of it, seems final. Still, I feel, a divorce should end in friendly terms. For greek studies, the encountering of both modern and ancient grammar, is inevitable for all hellenists. A nod to ancient grammarians, would be a nice thing. Philippaki keeps the words Aorist, etc, and for the Subjunctive & Imperative she adds a tiny footnote. ... Σε άλλες γραμματικές ... what used to be Present Subjunctive, Aorist Subjunctive... etc.

• and oh, please, when you finish the verb-έργο could you rethink the 'uncountable' term for nouns, please??? The existence of plural depends on it.

I shall not edit things, until the end of your work, dear mentor. Awaiting for your publishing, with great προσδοκίες. sarri.greek (talk) 18:48, 2 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

@sarri.greek:Whoa - rather a lot there :)

3. Do you mean Subjunctive should be below "Future perfect" and above "Imperative" in the table ?

> sarri: yes (I understand you avoid 'Indicative' word, but there is the end of it

> salt: point taken!

4. No - I was going to leave it as it is now (just 1st person singular) and do the same for Future & subjunctive. Surely anyone viewing the perfect tenses will be familiar with that much grammar.

> mmmm. not if he does not speak greek.

5. "old little box" - I don't understand! Do you mean like the 'old table' as seen at λύνω ?

> sarri: yes, two little squares Participle, Non-finite above Notes. Shows how diff from other forms. I like it

> salt: I've made a change - is this what you mean?

6. The PoS headings used thoughout Wiktionary are set in stone (more or less) - I'm not sure that we have to agree between the table and word-entry. If I understand you λύνοντας should be labelled "indeclinable participle" and λυμένος "declinable participle" in the table?

> sarri: no, not at PoS --god forbid--!:). Under PoS at the definition line. A fixed expression. For people to copy-paste, like from your model pages.

That enough for the present! — Saltmarsh. 19:46, 2 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

sarri, replying above @Saltmarsh: sarri.greek (talk)

> — Saltmarsh. 06:58, 3 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Magic @Saltmarsh:! Your changes great. I love it.

1. details:
   1. these headings are not centered, but aligned left: Indicative. Subjunctive. Imperative. Other forms.
   2. these headings are not centered, but aligned right, I presume intentionally, to show they are under 'Future tenses': PresentPerf. PastPerf FuturePerf.
   3. these headings are not centered, but aligned right, I presume intentionally, to show they describe their right-side-cell: Present participle \thaaanks\ Perfect Participle. Active non-finite form. Passive non-finite form.
   4. are all the headings going to have links.

      > salt: I think this is sorted (further links may follow)

2. at line-headings 1 you have: Imperfective apsect. Perfective aspect. Imperfective TENSES. Perfective TENSES. Is the distinction intentional?

   > salt: typo - but I am a bit vague about the nomenclature of grammar :)

3. I love, love the tooltip at the little arrows. In greek too!. Can you believe it, i have never been sure of the translation of the terms... (Should it be an arrow... or something ☜ Put it at all same words too?)

   ☜ looks good if I view it with Edge - but it's crap with Chrome and Firefox!

   1. Imperfective aspect: Εξακολουθητικοί χρόνοι (as in el.witkionary) -we cannot say Εξακολουθητικό ποιόν ενέργειας. Babiniotis at his grammar uses Ατελές ποιόν.
   2. Perfective aspect: Συνοπτικοί/στιγμιαίοι χρόνοι. Babi: Τέλειο ποιόν.
   3. now, the third aspect, Συντελεσμένοι χρόνοι , you correctly --i think-- do not add horizontally. They are at your Future Tenses: PresPerf. PastPerf. FutPerf. BUT, you also need a subjunctive for Present Perfect. Συντελεσμένη Υποτακτική: να έχω λύσει, να έχεις λύσει... & Passive: να έχω λυθεί... etc. Extra row at Subjunctive?
   4. love the tips at sg and pl. Will you add (ενικός αριθμός) (πληθυντικός αριθμός)? You even have enough space to add εγώ εσύ αυτός-ή-ό εμείς εσείς αυτοί-ές-ά :-)
   5. Dependant: = Εξαρτημένος τύπος. Your tip: The Dependent is not used alone, it is used to from Future simple /Simple future?/ Perfective subjunctive and other forms. Philippaki: The Dependent is used with particles θα and να to form ...She adds: Its 3sg is used as indeclinable...\you don't need this\
4. Non-past tenses would be Παροντικοί χρόνοι. Past tenses Παρελθοντικοί χρόνοι. Future tenses: mmm Μελλοντικοί... which they are. Maybe Συντελεσμένοι χρόνοι (You need your third aspect. Could use both terms?)

   > salt: I think I've attended to most of this. I've shortened the "dependant" tip (user should follow the link to the Glossary - you could extend this entry if you wish)

5. When you give only one form instead of a whole column. You could perhaps write (I've seen it at french aimer):
   1. at Fut.Continuous: particle θα + Active Present Indicative forms (θα λύνω, θα λύνεις...)
   2. at Fut.Simple: particle θα + Active Dependent forms (θα λύσω, θα λύσεις...)
   3. at PsssS.Fut.Cont: particle θα + Passive Present Indicative forms (θα λύνoμαι, θα λύνεσαι...)
   4. at Pass.Fut.Simple: particle θα + Passive Dependent forms (θα λυθώ, θα λυθείς...)
   5. at PresentPerf: auxiliary έχω + Active non-finite form (έχω λύσει, έχεις λύσει...) and so on.

      > salt: I've partially done this

6. at PresentPerf, PastPerf. FutPerf: about your double-column-cells (col2+col3) (e.g. έχω λύσει... / είχα λύσει/ θα έχω λύσει) & (έχω λυθεί, είχα λυθεί, θα έχω λυθεί): their STEM corresponds to the column3 stem. Under Perfective aspect. Do you intend to align them right?
7. at Imperative, i think you must add 2sg and 2pl at column1. Because in other languages the persons are more.
8. at Present participle could also be: Gerund, indeclinable (Ενεργητική μετοχή, άκλιτη). And at Perfect partiiciple: Passive perfect participle, declinable (Παθητική μετοχή, κλιτή)
9. for the non-finite forms, maybe add a tip: indeclinable. They don't know it.
10. Note2: periphrastic imperative... I think, need a ref sign at word Imperative. Note could be shorter? like: Imperative is also formed periphrastically with να+subjunctive.
11. perhaps α note: Particles such as ας, μην, ίσως etc + verbal forms, may express various modalities (wish, άρνηση, απορία). ...or... Particles + verbal forms may express various modalities: e.g. να, ας (wishing), μην (negation), ίσως (απορία) \or not. You are right, this is not a grammar textbook\

Conclusion: your talbes are the best! (I've looked at many, and they are the best). Do you want me to go through the translations -sometimes the parenthesis-marks are omitted, little things like that. sarri.greek (talk) 20:17, 3 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

> salt: I still must look at the Subjunctives , but every addition makes template maintenance more difficult!

Thank you SO much for all your attention to this - I haven't deliberately ignored any for you careful suggestions — Saltmarsh. 12:38, 4 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thank you so much for your extended and invaluable help so far - it continues! I'm contacting some currently active editors of Greek entries to get some more opinions. Please have a look at User talk:Saltmarsh#Verb inflection templates and reply there. cheers — Saltmarsh. 11:35, 19 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

You are so kind! From the first day I arrived with my endless notes, you have shown such patience with me. Your tables are winners. I'm sending you a SMALL message. sarri.greek (talk) 15:23, 19 February 2018 (UTC) Forgot to @Saltmarsh you. (Oh, erase them). NOT the verbs! the Notes! sarri.greek (talk) 16:08, 19 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

I can't remember where we got to with -εστε/-όσαστε, is the current format OK? — Saltmarsh. 06:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes. Indic.2pl λύνεστε (λυνόσαστε). Παρατατ. λυνόμουν(α) λυνόσουν(α) λυνόταν(ε) λυνόμαστε (λυνόμασταν), λυνόσαστε (λυνόσασταν) λύνονταν (λυνόντουσαν) λυνόντανε Ι put third. This -οντανε form, must go off at learned verbs. sarri.greek (talk) 06:56, 22 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Correction: @Saltmarsh All my greek books & DSMG have this order at plural λυνόμασταν (λυνόμαστε they dont' have, so this is the optional). λυνόσασταν (λυνόσαστε). λύνονταν/λυνόντουσαν (λυνόντανε is from Iordanidou).sarri.greek (talk) 07:01, 22 February 2018 (UTC) Holton also has the -όμασταν first, the-όμαστε second. Only he has δένονταν-δενόντανε-δενόντουσαν at 3pl. sarri.greek (talk) 07:05, 22 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

• @Sarri.greek: I will change these in the next 36 hours - If I mis-interpret your advice PLEASE SAY :)
• I am presently going through Jordanidou's paradigms trying to check that the template works for 95%+ of them. We could probably go live then.
• Do we then demote non-deponent passives from lemma to non-lemma forms? — Saltmarsh. 12:00, 22 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh: You know what? It is not so serious. The types and variations. May change in the future. They are not wrong as they are now... It is refinement issue. I am more worried for the missing cells: e.g. passive present particile. The types -έστε -όσαστε etc, will differ anyway from verb to verb: verbs labelled Demotic, vebers labelled Learned (these do not have the -όντουσαν kind of endings... It will be probably done manually... It will take months. Every verb published must be checked. sarri.greek (talk) 12:09, 22 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek: Thank you so much. I've done the active/passive template (please check - and are there any other word orders that worry you) and will so the separate passive template later. — Saltmarsh. 12:15, 22 February 2018 (UTC) ++ @Saltmarsh Sorry, I did not understand the demote non-deponent passives from lemma to non-lemma... my brain is stuck.. sarri.greek (talk) 12:17, 22 February 2018 (UTC) ++ What do you mean you've done the active-passive template? You mean at Sanbox3? sarri.greek (talk) 12:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Ah yes sorry @Saltmarsh: you mean if λύνομαι kind of verbs will be lemmata.. Bof... I guess they are forms. And perhaps you would like to still put a table in their page... But the reader HAS to go to main page λύνω. I am wondering if usage notes, special definiotions for -μαι forms..., yesss, they must be in main page. I think I saw this in Entry layrout or somewere, it says that such definitions of forms must be in main page... (Salt, we are masochists...) sarri.greek (talk) 12:31, 22 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes @Saltmarsh: I saw the changes at Template:el-conj-2-1st. Much smoother now. I ll need to recheck with clearer eye, but I think they are geat. sarri.greek (talk) 12:38, 22 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

(1) I will deal with the pass.pres.participle.

(2) Learned's -όντουσαν ending can be suppressed with a flag or a separate template if there are many other differences.

(3) My hopes (the KISS principle) are that lots of this (eg imperatives) can be taken care of showing only one form. Its entry having sections ---Alternative forms--- and ----Usage notes---- togive details.

(4a) Passive forms lemma/non-lemma. We should certainly have definitions (at present most have "passive of …" is just a placeholder until a proper translation can be added.

(4b) Each should have a ----Conjugation---- with a link to the main/lemma λύνω page?

(5) active-passive template is the one which shows the voices beside each other horizontally (Yes as at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox3.

Apologies if you've already covered any of these! — Saltmarsh. 06:52, 23 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

see User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox#Testing 1 for example of pass/pres/participle, I need to sort out which verb types have this form — Saltmarsh. 17:01, 23 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

True @Saltmarsh: Keep-It-Simple is not easy. There are words that do not have simple inflections.

1)4) ok. 2) I know you have flag=optional and flag=rare.

3) as a reader i got the impression: Alternative forms at top of page, for e.g. a dialectal or different form of the lemma itself. Usage = how i use the lemma. The inflectional forms is another section in my mind. Probably notes under ---Inflection--- and above the template. But, better in the table. Oh it depends...

5) passPres/Perf participles: sorting out which verbs have it...: Cell everywhere (at doubleAct+Pass-templates too), empty or not #TalkSandbox). About which verb has what types: verb styles#TalkSandbox. Don't worry about it, If the cells are there, manual edits can take care of all that, gradually in the future. sarri.greek (talk) 00:55, 24 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

I'm working my way through User talk:Saltmarsh/Sandbox and report some here. Incidentally you do know that can create your own Sandbox just by using a link User:Sarri.greek/Sandbox. It's just the same as any other "page".

For examples please see User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox#Testing which uses the modified template.

1. I think I've dealt with the perfect present participle - some tooltip help may be required from you please.

2. Imperative headings - the aspect headings are repeated because the column merge above (perfect tenses and subjunctive)

3. I will go through your imperative corrections "έδενε" for example uses the imperfect stem, this fails with augmented verbs.

4. I have to deal with —μένο inflections - but I would rather not add all that extra text under subjunctive.

5. Styles of verbs - still to be dealt with.

Incidentally. You have created a language heading of "Mediaeval Greek" for ζεῦγος, in wiktionary (at present anyway) it is not a separare language. Mediaeval, Koine (all those before the fall of Constantinople) come under "Ancient" but can be given the label mediaeval.

— Saltmarsh. 07:30, 26 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

I think I've dealt with (4) above - but now creating a table for long verbs with Active-Passive arranged vertically — Saltmarsh. 06:41, 27 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

• Now done

I don't know if it was deliberate, but you used {{el-adj-form}} instead of {{el-part-form}} (it's the headword template which allocates words to a category. You can see (hopefully) the whole list at Category:Greek headword-line templates.
— Saltmarsh. 12:14, 28 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Καλό μήνα @Saltmarsh: (sorry, been away, too much work). Magic-work with the verbs!

> Sandbox... (i presume a pge one writes-erases. Does it matter how we call it? I call them lab, commands, etc?

1. The 4 cells (as in Iordanidou) for participles:

row1: Present Participle Μετοχή Ενεστώτα Now, tooltip cannot include the word 'indeclinable': active is indeclinable, but passive (learned, whereever it exists), is declinable. cells: i) Gerund, Μετοχή Ενεργητικού Ενεστώτα, άκλιτη (ορίζοντας) ii) Learned Μετοχή Παθητικού Ενεστώτα (οριζόμενος)

row2: Perfect Participle Μετοχή Παρακειμένου . --Salt, do you call παρακείμενος (el) (parakeímenos) Perfect? or Present Perfect? the el.wiktionary does not have a translation--. i) Μετοχή Ενεργητικού Παρακειμένου (έχοντας ορίσει) ιι) Μετοχή Παθητικού Παρακειμένου (ορισμένος). Frankly, between you and me the έχοντας ορίσει form, is included, to balance the passive cell. Iordanidou has it, otherwise it would not be very very needed...

2. and 3. OK. 4. -μένο? never mind. You mean the Accusative. a tooltip? But, as you often say... the table is not a grammarbook.

5. that's for 'internal' use, for our understanding. Flags: I cannot remember now, but I have seen tables with little 1, 2 (also in colour) for your notes 'learned', 'rare'...

6. Medieval Greek. Well, truth is, it is not under ancient, like Koine is. There are not too many lemmata for it. Yet. In the future, the problem will arise. If Med. is close to a phase, that is the modern phase. (I followed the el.witkionary style Cat:Med & Cat:Med.Grammar) I'll avoid such words in the future (I was thinking of doing ζευγάριν but i'll drop it).

> {{el-part-form}} Oh dear.. Yes, I copied adj. mistakenly. I will check all participles. Thanks for Category:Greek headword-line templates I'll need it.

> I will be following your herculean work with verbs... Are you going to publish one by one? Has anybody else seen them? Asking me to take a look at your work flatters me, but, I am no philologist...

> tooltips Imperfect and Simple Past: make capitals the words as in your other tooltips? P.S. I usually log in, weekends and Monday. Bye now sarri.greek (talk) 10:11, 1 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

— Καλό μήνα to you too!

• Sandbox - you can try stuff out there without bothering about doing harm, or just use it to store things temporarily. It will stay there until you delete it. For example (if you wanted) you could try out the new conjugation tables (Category:User:Saltmarsh) has the ones done so far, one of my sandboxes (User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox0) has the table of parameters, although this is still under development.
• Medieval Greek - the Ancient/Modern division is arbitrary (see Wiktionary:About Greek/Draft new About Greek) - a wider discussion would need to happen if we were to have another language heading, I am not qualified to discuss it, perhaps you could ask the community at the Wiktionary:Beer parlour.
• Looking at the tables - I asked Xoristzatziki, Stelio and Rossyxan, only Stelio replied (once I think). Question: I was thinking of putting a flag whcih would assign verbs to a suitable category - perhaps "unchecked" or "checked", although I suspect this would be a "hostage to fortune" (my dictionary says "εκτίθεμαι σε μελλοντικούς κινδύνους") - a category of hundreds which I would be unqualified to check.
• No need to check correct spellings of table contents yet - as long as the headings, tooltips etc are in the right place - a very big ευχαριστώ.

— Saltmarsh. 14:16, 1 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

— More

• Medieval Greek - see About_Ancient_Greek — I don't see why a word cannot appear under both Ancient Greek and Greek, and labelled as Mediaeval in both?
• Thanks for you comments (I'm very grateful) on format etc. I am looking through them.
• Question: I never learnt about the alternative perfective perfect tense (έχω ορισμένο) I hadn't thought long enough about this "ορισμένο" is accusative - so it is always remains accusative and only changes with gender & number? No - it behaves as a noun, so just has number??

— Saltmarsh. 06:44, 2 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

- Snow? @Saltmarsh: In northern greece too. But in southern, 15-17 Celsius now.

• 1. Sandbox: ...without bothering about doing harm... Harm to what? I presume you mean changing templates, modules. Is 'Sandbox' a page unlike any other user page? I just write and rewrite my lab pages (like a παλίμψηστος-palimpsest). Is a 'Sandbox' different? I am totally ignorant of computers and scripting... except very little htm TABLE DT and so on...It is very hard for me to find 'templates' every time i edit... So I chose participles, and I messed up, because i copied the wrong thing...
• 2. Mediaeval Greek: let's postpone this issue for the moment? I will collect data-arguments for its emanicipation...
• 3 Showing tables for feedback: Goodness! you are all alone in this? There are professional grammarians who would dread attempting what you have already done. I'll try to find aquaintances who could take a look... In the meantime: Flyax. I see, he has done most of the verb Templates @el.wikt. Except the traditional style Active. el:δένω Passive el:δένομαι, sometimes added in BOTH pages el:λύνω & el:λύνομαι again only the Passive. There is also this horizontal style: el:σηκώνω.
• -IF you deal with the passive as a lemma, with its own examples, etc, then, its own inflection could be added also there, plus at the main lemma page. So, you have double tables: Act+Pass together e.g. at page λύνω -which is very good for juxtaposition-, and a Passive alone at the page e.g. λύνομαι. So all kinds of table formats could be available: Active. Passive. Act+Passive.
• 4. >>as long as the headings, tooltips etc are in the right place Not yet, tooltips need check. Not serious. Some capital letters. Is your policy this: Include in tooltips all terms: english & greek attested-in-grammars, either traditional or more modern.
• 5. Present Perfect = Παρακείμενος. There is Parakeimenos A = έχω λύσει/έχω λυθεί and Parakeimenos B = έχω λυμένο (yes, in Acc)/είμαι λυμένος (in Nom). The story of these two is long. The B. type is older, comes from koine, even older. It survives vividly in today's dialects. In Koine Neohellenic (Standard Mod.Gre) it has a slightly different nuance in its meaning (grammarians debate and debate). I need to write a summary of my notes.
• 6. PS. How do you delete pages? e.g. κουραστηκός κουραστηκά not κουράστηκα, αγγέλω not αγγέλλω, αγγείλω
• 7. PPS. Participles: I need your OK. After you finish with verbs, I will ask you to take a look -I 'll do one and show it to you-, otherwise, what's the point of my editing in the wrong way dozens of words?

PPPS. O Salt! I have so many questions, SO MANY edit-notes sitting there at my laptop. Don't know where to start.

• 8. About tables and tooltips: How about a rendez-vous in real time: you edit, I read, we talk, you edit... Hope you will not mind my smoking. sarri.greek (talk) 06:12, 3 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

—It's 2degC now, so thing are getting better. Replies to some of your points:

— 1. Subpages: these are just like you "User:Sarri.greek/lab" page so you dont need to call them Sandboxes - its just another title for an experimental area. I have some subpages (eg "User:Saltmarsh/template1") where I experiment with a developing template, note that 'official templates' are kept in an area 'Templates:' (like categories in an area 'Category:', and users in 'User:'). If your put the name of a page in curly brackets {{page name}} it will be "transcluded" - the whole page will be included in another.

— 3. Flyax - used to be very active on en:wikt but is still around but not very active (go to any page edited by him, look at page history, click on contributions/συνεισφορές against and editor's name and you'll see a list of his most recent edits. "17:53, 12 Φεβρουαρίου 2018" at present.

—Active/Passive lemma non-lemma can be delt with later

— 4. I think Tool tips should include:- in English: terms which the English speaker might be familiar with (eg gerund) —in Greek: a commomn term useful to a Greek. Probably all caps should be removed. I cribbed the Greek terms not supplied you from Μανόλης Τριανταφυλλίδης (his "Concise" translated in Australia bu John Burke).

— 5. Thank you for the lesson - changing language is interesting, I remember Flyax (I think it was him) saying that he used to address his father with the formal 2nd person plural but that his kids wouldn't dream of it!

— 6. Deletion: finding your way round Wiktionary is not easy, and after more than 10 years I am not familiar with areas where I don't venture. The Help pages are sometimes not very helpful and may use unfamiliar terms - but have a look at Wiktionary:Cleanup and deletion process. The formal procedures are to prevent incorrect deletions. If want a page in your user personal area deleted I can do it. And if folloing the procedure and after a few days of consultation with no objections I can delete.

— 7. The terms used by grammarians seem to change and are subject to fashion.

— 8. Skype on my computer does not work properly at present. (Smoking would be compulsory - but I'm not allowed to in the house!)

Now I must try to do some editing — Saltmarsh. 07:43, 3 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

I fancied a change from verbs - a list at User:Saltmarsh/Lists/Grammar probably contains errors and is incomplete - culled mainly from Μανόλης Τριανταφυλλίδης (Concise) translated by John Burke of Melbourne Uni. — Saltmarsh. 17:44, 3 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

My dream came true @Saltmarsh:. I never had real lessons of grammar neither in greek.mod. (we are supposed to know it) nor in eng. Your Lists are published as Appendices! Lovely. --Reverse the headings English Greek. συνεκφώνηση. full stop. στίξη. 1st syllable αρχική (συλλαβή). participle x2. Will you do a different one for linguistics? sarri.greek (talk) 17:52, 3 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

You spotted by deliberate errors! I think that eventually we should have these lists as proper appendices. — Saltmarsh. 18:12, 3 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

προσφώνηση too, @Saltmarsh: (I get your messages 20 min late... Is it my connection... Weird that Triantafyllides has κορωνίς at his Modern Greek Gr. I thought it happens only in ancient. But, it has to be included in your list! sarri.greek (talk) 18:26, 3 March 2018 (UTC) @Saltmarsh:, are you duplicating some on purpose? ok... sarri.greek (talk) 18:30, 3 March 2018 (UTC) @Saltmarsh, I think diphthongization is the opposite of συνεκφώνηση=uttering together. It is διφθογγισμός=vowel breaking, or διαίρεση, but διαίρεση I am not sure. sarri.greek (talk) 21:58, 3 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

I HOPE i did not mess again. I corrected θλιμμένος + its forms. Could you please please check them (when you have time?).

• 1. at ety, i like to show the passive verb -μαι, but also the basic lemma -ω (κουρασμένος) (to save 2 clicks for the user, and well, i find it more complete). Do you agree, or is it too much?
• 2. el-participle of takes a nodot=1 but if i wish to go on adding a comma, it comes after a space. θλιμμένος (no big deal, i can omit the comma)...
• 3. For SOME participles, I wish to add α note: More often/frequently? used?/functions? as an adjective and for the -ώντας: ...functions?/behaves? as adverbial participle. Old grammars used: επεχει θέση επιθέτου... (it 'holds' an adjectives' role/place). Should i put it as 'Usage notes'? (Wish there were 'Notes' or footnote, or northing, just write under PoS.
• 4. Categories: There could be a Category: Passive Present Participles (learned) (οριζομενος). A Cat: Passive Past Participles?/Simple Past Participles? learned (ορισθείς). And a Cat: Participles from Katharevousa (e.g. απηλλαγμένος versus mod. απαλλαγμένος, same thing in ancient fashion). Babiniotis-Clairis grammar has long list of such participles.

You are the boss! sarri.greek (talk) 19:34, 3 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

1. Looks fine

2. White space now removed

3. By all means add a level 4 "Usage notes" (in plural even if there's only one)

4. a category: "Greek passive present participles" it must have "Greek" and no more caps. It should nested in Category:Greek participles - see Category:Greek present participles on how to achieve this. I ain't the boss - any further categories are up to you :) — Saltmarsh. 05:43, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

I am here @Saltmarsh Ok, not boss: Master, Δάσκαλε @Saltmarsh:! (a word reserved for someone beyond 'καθηγητής'). Thanks, and thanks for that comma, and all. sarri.greek (talk) 09:26, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Salt, what is correct English:

1. Present active/passive participle

2. Active/pass present participle. (in greek we say Participle of active present... At Template:el-part & el-participle I will need more than the tense. Active present. Active past. Passive present. Passive past. Passive perfect. I can try add them, but the order of the words... The equivalent ancient is {inflection of|xxxx||pres|p|part|lang=grc} its order of words is ad libitum. Should I use this one when needed? Thhhanks sarri.greek (talk) 11:30, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

I've made the latest changes - I hope accurately from your notes (thank you). I am anxious not to titivate much more. Just attend to any errors! And thank you again — Saltmarsh. 06:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

I am looking at ορίζω/ορίζομαι @Saltmarsh. Your nice solution: all small letters (I presume will be the same for all tables).

• Tooltip Passive Present Participle: κλιτή (not κλιτό). Active Perfect Participle: add άκλιτη? & Pass.Perf.Part. add κλιτή (if you want same expressions with the actives).
• At non-finite, i would add άκλιτος τύπος, απαρέμφατο. (just to make sure you cover all its names).
• Subjunctive mood is not really presented. Its 3 froms. You know that, I understand it was your concious decision?
• Future: it is possible that some readers will not realize it is θα+Indictative. Maybe some tooltip like the one at participles...
• Perfect aspect, not perfective (over the perfect tenses). Holton, discusses aspect at 7.1.3 as 'two' aspects. Then, at 7.1.4: Greek also has a set of 3 prefect tenses which stand outside the aspectual system of imperfective versus perfective. He does not name it 'third aspect', but greek books do: συντελεσμένο ποιόν . (same word as συντελεσμένοι χρόνοι). It IS presented as a 3rd aspect, even if Holton chooses to discuss it separately and a bit vaguely; probably he has doubts about its characterization. I thought the whole section centered, to show it is neither imperfective nor perfective.

And all this you and your magic modules will transfer at every table! You must show this to Iordanidou. After everything is ready, why not... Hurrrahhhh sarri.greek (talk) 09:32, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

|ευχαριστώ πολύ! I'll do those and then transfer them to the other table templates. — Saltmarsh. 11:32, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

15 minutes later - I hope/think I've done what you wanted - tooltip to future forms showing formation - and the others. Correct agreement of endings was always a problem with me, since I did Latin at school in the 50s. — Saltmarsh. 11:48, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

:) ok @Saltmarsh:, I'll look now. I left you a little question at participles... sarri.greek (talk) 11:50, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh:, Great. Do you also want a tip at Perfect aspect? συντελεσμένο ποιόν. Future, is great.

About the Notes: 1. Multiple forms are usually shown I don't think you need the word 'usually'... 2. maybe some flag to Imperative? it seems like a general note when it is not. sarri.greek (talk) 12:00, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

• it should perhaps read "Multiple forms: usually shown in order of reducing frequency" better?. I would rather not introduce a flag (KISS!) and it does apply to other forms like 3rd person plural forms.
• Please repeat (sorry) your " little question at participles"

— Saltmarsh. 12:19, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh: I would just erase the word usually. (the tables ALWAYS show the forms that way) ..a detail. Ok. no flags... A.. when you have time. The participles. Just above this section. Not now, when you have time :) sarri.greek (talk) 12:24, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Do you mean where it says " For SOME participles, I wish to add α note: More often/frequently? used?/functions? ..."? — Saltmarsh. 12:26, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

I was talking about the word 'usually' in the pink notes #1 at the verb tables. Never mind. sarri.greek (talk) 12:28, 4 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Done. I'll copy those changes onto the other tables. Then check through Jiord's 1st conjugation for any paradigms which give a problem. — Saltmarsh. 05:51, 5 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Dear @Saltmarsh,

• 1. Oops. at Subjunctive: <<Formed using present, simple past or present perfect from above...>>

Correct: Formed using present, dependent (for simple past), present perfect from above...

• it's on my ToDo list

• 2. a detail, but not so detail: That tooltip arrow. Is it your choice? or a wiktionary thing? At the beginning, for some days, i thought it was pointing somewhere, but it did not occur to me to pass the mouse over it. Is there a ... something like a rosette, a star, an info round icon... for stupid people like me?

• Please suggest something which character would be best.

• I have tried a rosette ֍. — Saltmarsh. 14:45, 6 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

• 3. I do not know your procedure in publishing process. I think it would be good if you could also check-together each verb with one of its compounds, rather than do it later. There may be slight or major differences. I have checked ορίζω/ορίζομαι. It is FINE. αντιπροσωπεύω/αντιπροσωπεύομαι: some tooltips are not ready yet. I, again, feel that the cells under Perfect should be centered. Active αντιπροσωπεύω is fine. BUT Passive αντιπροσωπεύομαι needs the double -σθ- learned types, and needs to drop some demotic types (compare to Iordanidou δημοσιεύομαι). I know, that now you are only interested in the TABLE-as-blank, so you may see my thoughts here and the table-notes here, later.

and 4. I made you, a little diary-note, which may become handy if some guest has objections over this or that in your lovely tables. sarri.greek (talk) 16:15, 5 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

• Template maintenance becomes a problem if there is too many different styles of table - eg changing a tooltip at present has to be done on each of the 4 "table" templates in Category:User:Saltmarsh we don't want too many more (there's still 2nd conj. to deal with!). The other 4 templates are used to feed the "table" ones. So I will have to look at the implcations of what you say above.
• You might like to try using {{el-conj-2-1st}} in your lab, there is some help there and you could use some of those on my Sandbox for guidance. And tell me if it's all Greek/Chinese to you :). We need a list of verbs which cannot be accomodated by the current templates, I've been going through Jiordanidou, but perhaps your compound verbs will raise a problem? — Saltmarsh. 17:22, 5 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

• • I've done διορίζω και καθορίζω (User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox#for_Sarri) - does the output look correct? — Saltmarsh. 17:46, 5 March 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • Well having logged off I read further down your notes and see you're ahead of me. Please comment on the output — Saltmarsh. 18:50, 5 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

你好 nǐhǎo @Saltmarsh: replying to #Verbs closure 2. I have a blurred, vague understanding of your magic templates.

• 3 and 4: >>comment on outpout of (User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox#for_Sarri)
  • a) I understand that διορίζω type of table is identical with the table of ορίζω. If an editor chooses to suppress (‑όντανε) (pass.imperf.pl.3) could he do it?
  • b) καθορίζομαι needs double types,... but you know this. also you have seen my notes.
• 1. Template Maintenance of tables. I thought there was a magic thing (your language: template, module, i dont know) for tooltip, and if one changed the magic thing, it would fssssst go to all tables of all wiktionary. (yes, yes it is chinese to me) Aaaa I see you add ↑ with 2=&#x2191;
  • I am totally ingnorant of such things, but here are some candidates for tooltip singal. Or just superscript?
• 2. >>You might like to try using {el-conj... 你好 中國 你好 中文 especially for #if... Is there a tutorial somewhere?
  • I thought: You have active finished, checked; and you have passive finished ok. If you choose to put them in one table side by side, you just 'load them' to a table with TD active and TD passive. If you want them one of top of the other, you load them to a table with TR active and TR passive. (I do not see why not visibly separate). And if you want them separate (especially passive) you already have them. So, i need active table. passive talbe. and a 'frametalbe' to host them. But how this is done i have no idea.
  • I can see how you name variables (??? I got the term right?) a-present-1s etc. but i do not know where that {{{present|}}} is.

I am reading, I am reading, I need time. --writing down some notes, but unchecked, too hasty--
In the meantime:

• I don't understand how to erase page. Also I do not know what that 'Move' button does, on top of page, I'm afraid to click it. These pages are to be erased: 1.κοριτσάρων (no pl.gen at κοριτσάρακορίτσαρος). 2. κουραστηκά κουραστηκός (I transferred content at κουαραστικά, κουραστικός. 3. Αγίες Τράπεζες (cf Αγία Τράπεζα -Αγίες is a wrong but frequent-mistake-form referring to female saints, but for Τράπεζες it is a No.) 4. --ὑπoδήματος with english o (I meesed up, but finally made correct ὑποδήματος). and 5. αγγέλω (there is αγγέλλω, there is αγγείλω but there is no αγγέλω except the female name Αγγέλω, dialectal of Αγγέλα (Angela). It is a frequent mistyping of αγγέλλω. Ow this is a weird verb. Mostly found in compounds (παραγγέλλω/παραγγέλνω). Alone it is rarρε. The forms να βάλλω & να βάλω are both valid by the way).

The Rosetta, nice. see my candidates too. sarri.greek (talk) 14:53, 6 March 2018 (UTC) @Salt: sorry for the mess..Just found out how to write < strike > sarri.greek (talk) 15:41, 6 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

In no particular order

1. Bots Some wiktionary editors use a "bot" (short for robot I guess), this enables them to make global changes. The conjugation templates could be written as a "module", modules use something like a proper programming language and allow more sophisticated decisions to be made depending upon the input. I did programming when I was at work using a number of languages, but I have become something of a Luddite (I never use that word in a derogatory sense - admirable fellow "Νεντ Λουντ"). But undertaking either bot or module would I think involve me wasting time (such things are interesting in themselves) and changes to my computer software, which I don't want to carry out.

But I can make global changes to each template file using my text editor. The problem with editing these templates is that an error might not show up until a particular set of conditions occur.

2. Double forms The only double forms catered for are ACtive-imperfect & aorist. With really odd verbs every form an be entered look underlying text at the User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox3#Custom this is really laborious, and to be avoided whenever possible. Have a look at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox#for_Sarri again I have added a note to καθορίζω, I had already done this for "ελέγχω" on the same page.

3. Unwanted forms I should be possible to control the oddities of imperative forms - but any more optional extras are I think (unless really very common) impossible to achieve. There is a caveat emptor warning at the bottom of the old verb conjugations (this is why I said "usually" previously - is anything totally universal?) as a warning that some shown forms may be "rare or non-existant".

4. This is how it is and I don't want to start again! I'm just trying to run through the verbs to find out if there are any serious oproblems.

5. Wiktionary:Page deletion guidelines and Wiktionary:Cleanup and deletion process explain the processes. I've deleted "κοριτσάρων " but I think you should give me a clear list of terms that you want deleted. I don't think that it's wrong to have words that are miss-spelled reasonably often - if someone looks it up with the wrong spelling they will leave a wiser person.

6. Move - move allows you to move a page with its history to a new one - example: I create page "craby" and intended it to be "crabby" I can move the first to the second (provided "crabby" doesn't already exist.)

— Saltmarsh. 12:46, 7 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Dear @Saltmarsh:! Thank you for aaaaallll the time you took to teach me, really, I appreciate. Lovely tooltip. Luddite... I'll think about it. _2. Double types... laborious: don't worry: I can write them quite fast. Give me verbs - i write - you oversee. __3. rare or non existant... in tables? at tables i like precision. That is why they are called 'paradeigmata'. You can OMIT, but not include an ambiguous and wrong type. If in doubt, omit. __4 Yes yes, I know, you will get a medal for these verbs, I KNOW how much work you have done! __5 About erasing pages: yes wrong utterances can be recorded as such. (But only when frequent). Ok: now: to my job, proofreading. Here, at SndbxTlk Good night, or: good morning. sarri.greek (talk) 02:29, 8 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Firstly - you're obviously an accomplished templater/programmer - but "Μια εικόνα αξίζει όσο χίλιες λέξεις" (with Google's help) and I see what you were talking about. I'll be back in the morning. And thanks very, very much.

1. Logging off, I'm not sure why that should be - although lately pages especially loading categories, saving edits have been very slow lately. I cannot help, see if it continues.

2. "Learned", "Literary" I have no feeling for precisely what these mean. Please can you give me some examples of where you might expect to find them (poetry, prayer, legal document, act of parliament, Η Καθημερινή, university lecture, etc etc)

and thanks again — Saltmarsh. 19:00, 9 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Oww @Saltmarsh: copy-paste with alterations promotes me to a 'programmer'? You are being supportive and encouraging. __Loggin off: not so much. Probably my internet is lagging. __learned, literary: yes, one can find them in all your examples. I have similar problem: I know what it means in greek, I am unsure of english. You could see if my greek-dictionary terms are useful? I still have a problem with some of them. Good night. sarri.greek (talk) 21:40, 9 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

1. (repeated from elsewhere) -όντανε: do we omit this for all verbs? Is it important to leave it in for others?
2. Dangerous cells:
   1. How many cells?
   2. How many forms in each?
   3. Is it important that all are 'linked'?

I am thinking about future users of our templates. If there is only one form - it can be linked automatically. If there are more, or if rare/learned brackets are to be attached life becomes more complicated. If you think that future editors can be relied upon, it is would be possible for them to enter text character-by-character eg {]}, ]] which would give {βλαηβλαη}, .

— Saltmarsh. 07:12, 12 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh: also, Thank you for your interesting notes
For your questions here, my answer, and ultimately your decision, will be based on your final paragraph: thinking about future editors. You, dear Salt, know better how wiktionary works. I do not. But you also have to think of the future readers too, and the future of wiktionary: It is going to become more and more precise, detailed. If you allow possibility to enter text character-by-character, the hundreds of variations can be written, without creating hundreds of templates. Yes, Yes, I like {]}, ]]

• 1. -όντανε compromise: Keep the standard -ονταν, plus (-όντουσαν) in parenthesis, and GET RID EVERYWHERE of -όντανε. (cf my last paragraph)
• 2.1. How many: 9 Dangerous cells: anarchic cells:notes: passive imperfect plural 3rd (if you do the COMPROMISE this is out), the Imperatives, the Participles= 1+4+4=9. Or 8.
• 2.2. how many forms: Just an option for senior editor to re-write ad libitum the cell. For pass.perfect.participles, (e.g. κεκλεισμένος) you may make a provision for a second learned type (when non-existand:invisible, not with long dash blank). Also, editor should be allowed to add a little singnal/flag/ref --how do you call it?-- for his |note=. If you do not, the editor can add it as a note, or as a Usage note.
• 2.3. linked? I do not understand... Is not EVERY word on the table linked to a page?
• your title: Learned verbs or forms? At the 'dangerous' cells: both. There are common demotic verbs with POP! one little learned form (e.g. pass.perf.part κεκλεισμένος). And there verbs that are categorized as learned in most of their forms (they behave more like their ancient version). = The compounds, the -χθ-/χτ σθ/στ etc are also behaving thus.
• 1 -όντανε again: IF you decide to make 2 kinds of basic templates: I would include it in parenthesis at normal verbs (let's all them the 'δένω' verbs). And I would completely take it off, as well as -όντουσαν at compounds (Let's call them the 'προσδένω' verbs). (I choose δένω, because λύνω's compounds go: επιλύω, which is a different verbal stem). Iordanidou omits these endings (-όντουσαν, -όντανε) at compound/'learned' verbs. At my recap I made a 3fold categorization, which, is TOO meticulous. excessive. But I feel, that learned compounds, should be dealt separately. (el.wiktionary, greek schoolgrammars DO NOT have -όντανε AT ALL). sarri.greek (talk) 08:21, 12 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

• Firstly an apology - if you have to repeat yourself sometimes!
• 1. Got it, "χχχόντουσαν" will be in full because of the shifted tonos.

I will have a think about the rest - so no more request for a day or so please!

— Saltmarsh. 19:10, 12 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

I am making changes to the parameters of {{el-conj-2-1st}} - everything will be unstable for a day or so. — Saltmarsh. 06:51, 13 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Allowing verbatim entry by an editor into a cell will involve multiple nested "if" statements. I working on allowing all imperative & participle cells to be overwritten or blanked (ie not verbatim). Please give me one cell where you would like verbatim entry and I can experiment - "template language" is a blunt instrument, more could be achieved with modules, but don't wish to venture there. — Saltmarsh. 07:13, 14 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Ok, @Saltmarsh:, don't bother... There is 'Usage notes' which will deal with everything:-) sarri.greek (talk) 07:19, 14 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Γαστρεντερίτιδα! Thanks (and sorry about that unusual opening) I've now got to get back up to speed and hope to be back in full working order within a couple of days. — Saltmarsh. 06:44, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

O dear! @Saltmarsh: I was truly worried... Thanks for letting me know you are ok... I am online, available for chores if you need me... sarri.greek (talk) 10:05, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

• Thanks - it would be good if you could look at User:Saltmarsh/template1b (not a template) with the naming scheme I am aiming for. (1) Is the wording reasonably clear? (2) Are the parameter names reasonably understandable? They need to be shortish, of similar lengths (easy pasting) but still understandable! They don't work yet, but I am working up U:S/template1 & U:S/template1a with the changes — Saltmarsh. 11:00, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

quick thoughts @Saltmarsh:

• At first column (with the green cells), the only word which is NOT exact is: simplepas. Instead of 'simplepast' or just 'past'. If an editor needs to remember by heart, this is the only wording he has to remember. If it is only for your use, it does not matter.
• At imperatives: it is the only occasion where you name them by aspect, not tense: the perf here might confuse editors (with perfect TENSE). I would signal the 2 imperatives as present and past or....a-imperf-imptv-sg, a-pfctive-imptv-sg... uff i dont know , just to avoid confusion.
• EXPLANATIONS at column2: e.g. present = stem of active present form.

• Should be = stem of present active, passive (AND: a-imperfect-sg1, 2, 3b. AND: a-present-imptv-pl2. AND: p-present-imprtv-pl2. AND: a-present-part.) etc.
• Do you want me to make a list of: what form corresponds to which stem? I think of stems as three, easy for editor:

• e.g. ενεστωτικό ('present-bound'): presStem: presStem2=δήλων presStem1=δηλών presStem0=δηλων (the imperfect is done with THIS stem). and your 2nd for φρεσκάριζ=2presStem2.
• αοριστικό (pastStem) δηλωσ-.. etc plus your 2nd for φρεσκάρισ etc.
• and παθητικό αοριστικό (lets call it perfStem).

• The editor does not need to remember which stem does what. He just adds all the stems with their variated accentuation: It would help him if the order of the stems which you ask for, is the easy order, not necessarily the 'grammatically logical' but the phonetically logical. e.g. φρεσκαρ φρεσκάρ φρέσκαρ φρεσκαριζ φρεσκαρίζ φρεσκάριζ φρεσκαριστ (φρεσκαρισθ not for this one, but for other verbs) φρεσκαρίστ (φρεσκαρίσθ) φρεσκαρισμ. Even if he adds a stem which does not exist in the table, it would not matter.
• what the editor DOES NEED to remember, is when he wants to override auto, and write his own word: that is in Imperatives, and the Participles. Here, he needs to remember your names-of-cells: a-imptv-imperf-sg, a-imptv-perf-sg, etc. I would use a-pres-imptv-sg, a-past-imtv-pl, etc (voice-tense-mood-number). similar: Participles: a-perfect-2: what's this? Please give example. A... is it for learned participles?

• ref: 'during development' you mean, the readers/users will not see it. Hope it will be hidden in < -. Helps a lot! sarri.greek (talk) 12:21, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

I have assumed that no one (not even me) will remember them - I keep blank "template calls" in a text file so that I can paste them into a page. So they may have all the param-names and delete the unwanted ones. ie the names may not be remembered but should mean something when read.

• OK simplepas > simplepast
• I used the "column headings" - I think the identical part of the name should come first. I've changed the names slightly to make things clearer, following the pattern:

a-imptv-perfctv-pl and p-imptv-imperfctv-pl

• Parameter order - the editor can use them in their own preferred order - the template picks up the name, that's all.
• I should have made it obvious that the stem used is taken from the "1st person sg" in each case, so imperfect is taken from sing > "δήλψνα, …" and plur. present > "δηλώναμε, …". Is Greek grammar taught with a different meaning to stem?
• a-perfect-2 - it says at the top of the section:Use the parameter below to give the passive perfect participle and the alternative perfect tenses.
• ref will disappear in time - from the heading when it goes live and in small print in the footer eventually.

:)))) @Saltmarsh: ok, I thought i had to remember it all...

--Participles: my brain is stuck. Give examples here too as you do with all the other forms?

--how stems are taught... They are thought as stems, not as forms. Well, they do related to this or that tense, but, for instance: imperfect uses the present.Stem. this is how i think of them.

You know what? Your verbs are FINE.... Start publishing now! pleeeaszzzz. Champagne and everything. sarri.greek (talk) 16:58, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Good morning Sarri - almost finished, checking through the Jiordi list and finishing off the guide. — Saltmarsh. 05:51, 23 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Great morning! @Saltmarsh: I saw explanations at Template1b (yes yes now I understood - sorry). So, I am available if you need me to proofread or something. sarri.greek (talk) 05:57, 23 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Teacher! I forgot to tell you @Saltmarsh: I tried a template for ηγουμένη Template:el-nF-η-ες-2a1, but I was so nervous I first created it as Template:el-nF-η-2a1 ... I asked for delete. sarri.greek (talk) 06:02, 23 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Deleted and thank you - if you have time to have a look at any on User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox that would be nice. I shall be here until about 7GMT (about an hour from now). — Saltmarsh. 06:06, 23 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello. What do you think of the edits of 2A02:587:D832:8900:2DCE:AC32:CCD5:4CF7 (talk)? It seems this IP is making literal translations. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 14:22, 23 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes, he is. Word for word. And he wrote γιός when it is γιος. Nice to see you X! Are you by any chance aphenphosmphobic? ++A, yes, now it see it is you... sarri.greek (talk) 21:33, 23 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, I've reverted the edits. Yes that's me, you have a keen eye! --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:51, 23 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

I am looking forward to your next name @Per utramque cavernam: Could you please make it shorter... sarri.greek (talk) 22:00, 23 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Τι λες για το όνομα Anus Dei (talk • contribs); Κακόγουστο είναι; --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:58, 24 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Αχ, FX. You boys @Per utramque cavernam: with your wonderful names... No, I do not like it, It is not as witty as you are. You can look up Martialis for your next one. I have one in mind, but I shall wait until YOU come up with it. Greek, of course. By the way: The Derived Terms section just below: you should be talking to somebody else... You may cut it and paste it at is right place. errr... If I may: Have you got your PHD or DEA yet? sarri.greek (talk) 22:10, 24 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

You have to give me some clues, I'll never find it otherwise!

No, the message below is at its proper place :-) Perhaps I should have chose another example than that Russian one, but I'm pretty sure I've discussed this issue with you specifically.

And no, not yet unfortunately. :/ --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:21, 24 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Νο, we have have not discussed Derived Terms (except that i don't like the word @Per utramque cavernam: 'terms'. We have discussed borrow-versus-inherit at Talk page of errr... πῶλος and θύρα. _Name: I have given you clues before (at #Χαιρετίσματα) _DEA: go get it... don't waste your time: you can start editing in Wiktionary in your 60s:)))) sarri.greek (talk) 22:30, 24 March 2018 (UTC) +++ If you mean (at Derivatives) that I told you I don't like phrases in them, yes I don't, and I asked you to VOTE for separation of COMPOUNDS, not phrases. sarri.greek (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello. I think we discussed this at some point, but now I can't find where it was. Anyway, I seem to remember that you didn't want to have phrases like natural selection in the ====Derived terms==== of selection, but only words: selectionist, selectional, etc. (i.e. morphological derivations).

What I tend to do now is put phrases as usexes, just below the definition. Thus, at оте́чественный, I've added Вели́кая Оте́чественная война́ like this. What do you think? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:52, 24 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Good morning! OK @Per utramque cavernam, finally, after sleeping on it, I was convinced you were actually talking to ME.

1) Derived 'terms' especially with english strings of words can become very bad for the eye. I guess, in crowded tables, a categorization (to paragoga, compounds, expressions) would be nice. But they will not hear about it. In greek tradition the distinction between paragoge and σύνθεση ((compounding) is standard.

2) Yes, I like your UX very much. I wonder if such expressions should have their place at a special 'Expressions' list, or Usage Notes, when they are too many. But for only one, its placing as UX if fine. See @google how nice they do in grey colour the UXes, Syn, etc? The eye catches immediately the definition, and THEN moves to the Examples.

P.S. Could I bother you with this IPA stress concern of mine? PPS: Go get it! You know what... sarri.greek (talk) 02:47, 25 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello, I wonder if there is any chance you could add a Greek translation for this, please? I know these violin-related words are awkward though, so do leave it if it's not convenient for you at the moment. Thanks. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 12:21, 31 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello @Kaixinguo~enwiktionary. I am a pianist, but I have friends who are violinists and have heard the word. Also I checked at eng and greek Wikipedia. Sound post, synonym soul post. Greek: is the word for 'soul'   t+|ψυχή|g=f|t=soul (feminine noun, known as psyche). I forgot 'soul' has that meaning too, Thanks. You could add the translation yourself if you wish, since you brought it up. I'll check the greek pages of ψυχή to see that they include it too. sarri.greek (talk) 12:37, 31 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek: Thank you, that's great and it's lucky that you are a musician, these words are often not in the vocabulary of even native speakers. How interesting, it is 'soul' in a few other languages, too. Perhaps the Greek is the origin of this concept. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 13:09, 31 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, I added it to 'sound post' but it felt weird because I can't see what I am adding :) Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 13:14, 31 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Perfect, @Kaixinguo~enwiktionary. No, the idea to call it 'soul' was not greek, we had no violins until New Times. It is obviously a semantic loan. At w:sound post I see french âme and Italian anima but it is not clear to me, who used the word first. It's a common joke with the violinists: what happened to your soul and so on... sarri.greek (talk) 13:21, 31 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

The 2nd perfect tense forms in your template: Two types of "if" statement are used:

1. {{#if:{{{param|}}}| do this | do that }} If the parameter "param" is used then "do this" else if it isn't used "do that". A simpler form is {{#if:{{{param|}}}| do this}} when there is no 2nd alternative. The rem (=remark) <!-- --> syntax is used to make things more readable.

2. {{#ifeq:{{{param|}}}| test | do this | do that }} If the parameter "param" equals "test" then "do this" else "do that", again the "do that" can be omitted.

If you look at the line(s) starting with "|a-perfec2=" in your "User:Sarri.greek/lab/temp θεωρώ" you will see both of these "#if" statements used - they are nested one inside the other, explanation:

a. "#if:" if "a-perfect-2" exists

b. - - - - then "#ifif "a-perfect-2" equals a "hyphen"

c. - - - - - - - - then "do nothing"

d. - - - - - - - - else print έχω "a-perfect-2" etc

e. - - - - else ("a-perfect-2" doesn't exist) print έχω "p-perf-part|}}}ημένο" etc

a. "#if:" if "a-perfect-2" exists 
b. - - - - then "#ifif "a-perfect-2" equals a "hyphen"   
c. - - - - - - - - then "do nothing"
d. - - - - - - - - else print έχω "a-perfect-2" etc
e. - - - - else ("a-perfect-2" doesn't exist) print έχω "p-perf-part|}}}ημένο" etc

Sorry about the lecture! I've got to log off now for a while and hope to get back later this morning. — Saltmarsh. 06:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh: THANK YOUuuuu:) sarri.greek (talk) 06:18, 1 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek Looks good, well done. Do you have any outstanding problems with it? — Saltmarsh. 05:08, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Goodmorning! NO, no problem, because my teacher, @Saltmarsh:, is very good. The teacher may have though! I have written my concerns at the documentation. Also, I have used some nobr, just for fun! sarri.greek (talk) 05:11, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

1. Is the imperfect always going to be a problem (and sometimes the simple past)?

2. How many separate 2nd cat templates do you visualise needing?

— Saltmarsh. 05:27, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh: I checked 73-74-75 verbs from Iordandiou index A-Δ and there are lots with ONLY Present and Imperfect and nothing else. At notes#sub-groups I need 3 variations (except the Act and Pass tables). But if you make ONE 'Custom' table, the anticipated variations of allll other verbs will be ok? It izzz crazzzy... sarri.greek (talk) 05:33, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Is the table at {{User:Saltmarsh/template1a}} suitable? Warning - I'm still developing it, but it probably won't change today as I'm moving the new "conj" templates to "conjug" — Saltmarsh. 05:41, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh: something is wrong with the columns, missing line at Aspects, 2sg etc are displaced. sarri.greek (talk) 05:47, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

You mean my table:1a? If so I've just changed the output slightly since there is no perfective. — Saltmarsh. 05:50, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

• you can see o/p at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox3 — Saltmarsh. 05:51, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh: comparing template1a with Template:el-conj-2-1st-act I see |colspan="3" instead of "2". What is o/p ??? sarri.greek (talk) 05:53, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

A yes, @Saltmarsh: I see. Yes, ok, I would need blank (long dashes) at the missing imperatives too. I thought something was supposed to be there. At future too. sarri.greek (talk) 05:58, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

o/p = output (on screen) — Saltmarsh. 06:01, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

!! Thank you. Is o/p a possible lemma? sarri.greek (talk) 06:05, 2 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

I cannot find a source for the conjugation of πείθω and αναπαριστάνω - please could you check what I have done. Thanks — Saltmarsh. 17:00, 18 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Ancient greek pottery

• ᾰ̓γγεῖον n (angeîon, “vase”)
• ᾰ̓λᾰ́βαστρον n (alábastron, “glass vessel for oil”)
• ᾰ̓μφορεύς m (amphoreús, “amphora”)
• ᾰ̓ρῠ́βᾰλλος m (arúballos, “small sphaerical flask”)
• κάνθᾰρος m (kántharos, “tall drinking cup with handles”)
• κρᾱτήρ m (krātḗr, “mixing bowl for wine”)
• κῠ́λῐξ f or m (kúlix, “flat wine-drinking cup with handles”)
• λέβης m (lébēs, “deep large bowl”)
• οἰνοχόη f (oinokhóē, “large wine jar with handle”)
• λουτροφόρος f (loutrophóros, “large water carrying jar, placed on tombs”) (as noun)
• λήκῠθος f (lḗkuthos, “vase for oil, cosmetics”)
• πελίκη f (pelíkē, “similar to the amphora”)
• πῐ́θος m (píthos, “large jar”)
• πῠξῐ́ς f (puxís, “vase like cylindrical box with lid”)
• ῥῡτόν n (rhūtón, “drinking cup”)
• σκῠ́φος m or n (skúphos, “wine-cup with handles”) (ὁ σκύφος, τοῦ σκύφου / τὸ σκύφος, τοῦ σκύφεος)
• ῠ̔δρῐ́ᾱ f (hudríā, “water carrying pot”)
• φῐᾰ́λη f (phiálē, “shallow bowl”)

Is there any place to put this? @Erutuon, JohnC5 Thanks. sarri.greek (talk) 11:23, 2 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

There doesn't seem to be a category for pottery (the only sort-of related category may be en:Containers), so you could create an Appendix page: perhaps titled Appendix:Ancient Greek pottery terms. It is a quite specific topic, but there are quite specific English appendices, so that shouldn't be a problem. (I wonder if the Thesaurus namespace allows pages like this or not.) — Eru·tuon 19:21, 2 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thank you @Erutuon:. I see in Category:Ancient Greek appendices that you have things for grammar only. It does not fit. I am NOT an archaeologist, my list is amateur copy-paste. So, I shall just add it at my User pages. By the way, I see in Category:English glossaries, some, for very specific interests. (Would be lovely to have Glossaries for specific books or authors too -an appendix to wikisource!). Thank you, for your response. sarri.greek (talk) 21:23, 2 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

You needn't limit yourself to the types of Ancient Greek appendix that already exist. Ancient Greek can have glossaries like English does, and you can put them in the appendix category for now. But it doesn't hurt to put it in your userspace either. — Eru·tuon 00:58, 3 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Instead of using 'folsky' or 'learned', the way I've always done it is to call these types of words 'colloquial' and 'formal' respectively. I've also used 'informal' for 'laikotropo'. 'Learned' could also be 'dated' or 'archaic' if that applies. Rossyxan (talk) 11:40, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

O Ross! @Rossyxan nice to see you... can I move this at my Talk? I would like to ask you a lot about labels etc. λαϊκότροπο has been a problem for me: it is NOT colloquial... And about 'learned' (instead of archaic), for αρχαιότροπο... big problem... Could you be a darling and take a look (you do not have to read it all, just take a look at my questions while I move this? And I found Appendix:Greek_abbreviations where we can crystallize things? Thanksss. sarri.greek (talk) 11:55, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Here we are! @Saltmarsh, @Rossyxan and ping, whoever wants to add translations: Ross, I have been struggling with these labels for sooo long. And you have a talent for translation... Lets make a list and we can add favourite translations? This naming-categories/labels will make life easier for future editors, I think.

GREEK TERMS to english:

• επίσημο ύφος λόγου
  • ...
• λόγιο
  • Learned is the word Salt, suggested, and indeed, is it not λόγιος for an Anglophone? I tried intellectual but is no good. sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
    • Formal? It's what I use any time I encounter this in dictionaries. Rossyxan (talk) 16:38, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • ...
• αρχαϊκός v. αρχαιότροπος
  • for greek lang, these two are very different: archaic is out of use. the αρχαιότροπο is like aaaaaalll the 'learned'??? verbs we use very often: επιλύω, καταλύω, ο υπογράφων, τα δηλωθέντα εισοδήματα... What are we going to call all these??? sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
• αρχαιόκλιτο
  • inflection in the fashion of Ancient Greek.sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
• σε προφορικό λόγο
  • colloquial. Is there a difference with informal and with 'λαϊκότροπο'? The Appendix:Glossary does not help me much. e.g. λυνόντουσαν is more colloquial than λύνονταν. But it is not λαϊκότροπο, or informal. λυνόντανε, λυνόσαντε is λαϊκό, μάγκικο and dialectal. sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • ...
• oικείο
  • Colloquial or informal, depending on how I feel the word is used in Greek. For example τρελοκομείο, I've marked as informal Rossyxan (talk) 16:38, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

• λαϊκό, λαϊκότροπο v. informal, and v. δημοτική
  • it is not slang, it is something like low-class, but has a colour of δημώδες... I found the word folksy at el.wiktionary el:λαϊκότροπος and I rejoiced... Any other suggestions? Ross! find us a good word here. sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • Ross! @Rossyxan Yes, I see your diff The thing is: I may speak informally, with colloquial words, but that doesn't make it λαϊκό. O please, find some good word for it!!! Yes it IS informal. But more than that. I'll make a list of those. Ufff... we need something for λαϊκό, dictionaries have it again and again... sarri.greek (talk) 16:33, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

• 'δύσχρηστος (τύπος) for inflectional forms
  • It is not ungrammatical; on the contrary: It may be grammatically correct (not a misconstruction), but people do not use it because it is δύσχρησος = literally: difficult, uncomfortable to utter. ???? translation?? sarri.greek (talk) 07:23, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • awkward??? sarri.greek (talk) 16:33, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
    • I would tend to use the 'rare' label before such terms... as while they exist, they are, as Greek Wiktionary says 'difficult to say' or 'difficult to get one's tongue around' - words like 'τυροπιτών' for example or other genitive plurals Greek people might avoid as they're too unwieldy or awkward to say.Rossyxan (talk) 16:38, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
      • @Sarri.greek What I do in such cases as well is include a note on the inflection table saying "The genitive plural is uncommon and considered awkward by scholars."
        • @Rossyxan: OK! Rare it is: But whichhh rare: There are 2 categories: Category:Greek rare forms (I read at Module:labels/data that label= uncommon | very rare, and the Category:Greek terms with rare senses (label:rare). What is your opinion? So that we will label them for the same Category? sarri.greek (talk) 16:52, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

ENGLISH TERMS to greek: (Described at the Category:Greek terms by usage

• archaic
  • αρχαϊκός to me = ultra ancient, pre-classical. (like Homer and before)sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • ...
• dated
  • παρωχημένο? e.g. ο κάτωθι υπογεγραμμένος. We don't use it anymore? sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
• obsolete
  • ...

Anybody else has any ideas? sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello, I'm allowing myself to join the discussion :). Another label I've met is αρχαιοπρεπής… I have interested myself with these label in the past, but I have not been able to find any definite answer as to what is what. And it seems more complex than καθαρεύουσα vs δημοτική. In the Babiniotis dictionary, the following main distinctions are made:

• ύφος και συχνότητα της χρήσης (αρχαιοπρεπές, λόγιο, λαϊκο, οικείο, σπάνιο, κ.λπ.)
• πού (λογοτεχνία, διάλεκτοι, αργκό, κ.λπ.)
• γιατί (ειρωνική, χρήση, υβριστική, κ.λπ.)

It's on page 30–31 of the dictionary. Of course, I'm sure each dictionary uses its own vocabulary… I've also found a related question on the web: here. — Orgyn (talk) 13:55, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello @Orgyn:! I have seen your work, and it is very nice to meet you. Thank you, thank you for your notes, and the link (I'll study it).
Let's translate all these terms! If everyone adds a translation for each word, maybe we will be able to end up with ONE word for each Category. Maybe make this list in a separate page? A...Z? @Rossyxan has good ideas! @Saltmarsh? What do you think? I am having nightmares with αρχαίος-αρχαϊκός-αρχαΐζων-αρχαιοπρεπής-αρχαιόκλιτος, because archaic for an Anglophone is something different...

Orgyn, I am trying to add more DSMG and Babiniotis labels at Appendix:Greek abbreviations (Saltmarsh made this page) Please could you help (I have wave written SO many PLEASE HELP notes! Ross, you too? sarri.greek (talk) 14:15, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek, Orgyn, Rossyxan — Shouldn't the terms in context labels when used with Greek terms, have the same meaning and understanding as they have when they are used with English ones? ie Archaic (as seen in glossary) not αρχαίος (Babiniotis says <= 400BCE). We should use different terms OR expand the label. Perhaps for historical:

• (classical Greek)
• (mediaeval Greek) etc

for SMG terms I think it will take a native Greek to make a judgement using the rules written for English terms, I certainly couldn't do it!

— Saltmarsh. 06:03, 21 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Generally, I'd use grc ("Ancient Greek", or "αρχαία", αρχ.) for before 300 BC; grc-koi ("Koine Greek", "μεταγενέστερη" or μτγν.) for 300 BC - 300 AD and gkm ("Byzantine Greek", "μεσαιωνική" or μσν.) for anything between about 300 AD to the end of Katharevousa. At least this is what Babiniotis uses when explaining the etymologies Rossyxan (talk) 17:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

...continuing from english terms... No problem @Rossyxan, Orgyn, Saltmarsh with 'αρχαίος'=ancient. The labelling of historical periods is OK as Ross puts it (with Med ending at c.1700 I guess). The problems arise with the character, the flavour of the word.
Category:Greek terms with archaic senses What does this mean? senses? I understand: Greek archaic terms. or Greek terms in archaic form. As Salt points out, the 'archaic at glossary)= no longer used... like 'thy'... = an archaism for an English reader. But αρχαϊκός for greek, is different, no? It is preclassical antiquity, or very very ancient.
Αρχαΐζων τύπος, αρχαΐζουσα γλώσσα = ultra mimicking the ancient language. The message to the reader is can he use it or not? Some, but not all Katharevousa expressions are not αρχαϊκές (the ancients did not have these expressions, only the words), but αρχαΐζουσες = quasi ancient, in the fashion of ancient, dated, near obsolete, extreme (ο κάτωθι υπογεγραμμένος: nobody uses it anymore). But κεκλεισμένων των θυρών=αρχαιότροπη is 'ancientlike', but very frequently used. Bab and DSMG call them λόγιο. Salt proposes learned, which is accurate. I proposed 'antique' but... it reminds of an antique shop. Ross proposed formal for all these expressions. sarri.greek (talk) 18:17, 21 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
PS Please check Αιγίνης: is it ok to distinguish the two: Αιγίνης=formal, Katharevousa (it is not an archaism), Αίγινας=standard? or...? There are so many of those. By standard,I mean standard modern greek. sarri.greek (talk) 19:27, 21 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

• @Rossyxan, Orgyn, Sarri.greek I would imagine that most Greek terms fall into the similar sense/usage categories as English, my Greek is not up to doing this for Greek terms, unless the dictionary advises me. And I suspect that if 10 aspiring lexicographers discussed how to classify a word there would be at least 11 opinions.
• I don't think that antique would not be recognised by readers as a word descriptive. Archaic has to be used with the same sense that it is used (I assume) for all other languages, whatever αρχαϊκός means in Greek. Learned should I have (should we use) literary? This would be for terms rarely used in everyday life but encountered in poetry and the like (they amy well be archaic as well). I translated λόγ-ιος - perhaps I should have used λογ-οτεχηνικο!
• I have assumed that formal as the opposite of informal or colloquial, but similar to learned; I just looked up English formal terms and found badious (chestnut coloured) an unknown word (to me) and then find it's used in botanical texts, where it is extremely useful - perhaps we should follow Rossyxan's advice.

— Saltmarsh. 05:39, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Any ideas on Greek words that were first invented in foreign languages but that Modern Greek has embraced as its own? I am thinking of words like ψυχοθεραπεία; in other words what Babinitios calls "ελληνογενής ξένος όρος". For now, I just have to say it's derived from French/German/etc and give the Ancient Greek explanation after Rossyxan (talk) 16:32, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

You are so fast @Rossyxan! errr.. ψυχοθεραπεία is αντιδάνειο = twice borrowing or reborrowing Category:Greek twice-borrowed terms. I would just add the Cat, manually. I was TOLD to use only {af|el|.... from now on. And... can I move this to my Talk page please? sarri.greek (talk) 17:00, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

I thought about it again @Rossyxan Yes, Bab distinguishes "ελληνογενής ξένος όρος" (hellenogenous foreign term) from αντιδάνειο (reborrowing), i.e. the loan was of the compounds, not of the word as a whole (ψυχή θεραπεία). I have no idea if there is a term in English @Per utramque cavernam! Is there? latino-genous helleno-genous? something like that? Also, I was looking for the term διεθνισμός (intralingual? internationalism?) e.g. the word virtual which spread as a loan in many languages. sarri.greek (talk) 22:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

I shall be back with those conjugations, I am presently sidetracked with α-verbs and adding to and amending the table. — Saltmarsh. 04:58, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello @Saltmarsh: huge task this Appendix! I doing participles today, and en route some verbs: Do you want me to add them with some signal at your appendix? e.g. done: διαισθάνομαι προαισθάνομαι (I ll take away that horrible παραστέκω from there) and now doing: στύβω στείβω στίβω and τρίβω (σκάβω CAT) About the A-verbs: αηδιάζω does not have passive. sarri.greek (talk) 14:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Nice to hear from you @Sarri.greek - the appendix is open to all to edit, so add away. And yes, it'll take a while just to do the As ! — Saltmarsh. 14:57, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hey, @Saltmarsh: I just saw your αγγελμένος coming in!... I'll be around sarri.greek (talk) 14:59, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek Perhaps we just need to warn one another if we're active on that page - I won't be there for the next few hours now. — Saltmarsh. 15:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh at αγγέλλω there is an αγγέλω form mentioned at Alternatives: I do not think there is such a form (it is either αγγελλ- or αγγειλ- but never seen αγγελω. sarri.greek (talk) 15:06, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek Lookin at Google gives 34000, somebody is using it? And then I find out it's a name, is that so? — Saltmarsh. 15:19, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh check Babiniotis comment in that Box of his. It is a standard mistake, that's why he put that comment. ALSO: The others: DSMG disagree with Bab, that αγγέλλω is by itself a modern greek verb at all. DSMG gives only Present, and Iordanidou DOES NOT have it at all at her index: only as compound αναγγέλλω. It's a difficult one.... I assure you, that αγγέλω should be discussed only as a common minsconstruction. sarri.greek (talk) 15:24, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Right you are! I'll remove it! — Saltmarsh. 15:26, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh,oh I think it should be discussed: you know how obsessed I am with removing random mistakes, but this is not: people must know about it. The only objection I have, is that misconstructions appear in Categories: Lemmas, Nouns, Verbs, etc... and even IIIII was confused once, seeing one over there: Can't you take it offffff all such Cats, and have it ONLY at Misspellings and Misconstructions???? sarri.greek (talk) 15:29, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek The "lemma cat" is assigned by the headword template, and that is needed I think — Saltmarsh. 15:32, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh Even if people see it at google they trust, ahhhh Wiktionary has it, it is OK, they do not check: Isnt there a Hidden something category to put all those there? only found when one actually gets IN Wiktionary lemma which mentions it: I brought this up at Grease, at Tea, at Youname it... they think it is normal to have people BELIEVE to Wiktionary lemmata which are nonexistent. I really object to that. sarri.greek (talk) 15:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek Sorry - Windows wanted to update, the last time I ignored this (admittedly with the previous version) I had to reload everything again. There is a category - Category:Greek misspellings - I don't think there is a problem if everywhere the word appears it is labelled as a misspelling. In fact this may be better, as otherwise it might be assumed that the word is missing. — Saltmarsh. 04:42, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Salt, @Saltmarsh I posted this at Beer but as you predicted, it is normal to have imaginary words in common sight. :) sarri.greek (talk) 10:02, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

......Hopefully people will follow the link and find out the truth. I take it that capitalised "Αγγέλω" is an indeclinable form of Angelo, - = Αγγέλα (Άγγελος for women)? — Saltmarsh. 10:49, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh Αγγέλω is a very very vernacular form of fem.Αγγέλα (Angela, to match Άγγελος). Decl: η Αγγέλω, της Αγγέλως, την Αγγέλω, έ Αγγέλω! Also fem. is Αγγελική but no equivalent masc Αγγελικός exists as given name. About these -ω fem: Some are quite frequent (η Μάρω instead of Μαρία), some are vernacular (η Αγγέλω), some are affectionate (η/το Λενιώ for Ελένη Helen), and if someone wanted to mock me, he would call me η Κατέρω, and if he liked me: το Κατερινιώ in neutral. sarri.greek (talk) 11:01, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Ευχαριστώ :) I'll create it. — Saltmarsh. 11:07, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Do you think you would add {{Babel}} to your user page? It would be useful. Babel is more useful in wikt than Wikipedia, I think. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:47, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Dan Polansky: I did add my (2) Categories the other day: User:this, that. I thought it is OK? I speak one and a half language... I feel silly to put these nice big Babel boxes :) But, if is it obligatory... you may add them. Thanks for your concern. sarri.greek (talk) 09:51, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

It is not obligatory, just very useful. It makes it very quick to find the languages a user speaks. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

So, @Dan Polansky:, were you looking up something greek? sarri.greek (talk) 09:56, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

There are two kinds of people: those who readily add Babel when asked and those who don't. Conversations with the latter almost never lead to any useful result. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:59, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

What a terrible thing to say! Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 10:52, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hi Kai @Kaixinguo~enwiktionary: nice to see you. It's ok. Some like Babel, some don't. Thing is... about these boxes, I never know what languages they represent, because I do not know the codes. sarri.greek (talk) 11:17, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

I apologize if I was impolite; I fear I have such a tendency and I do not get a good feel for these kinds of things. In the case you would decide to add Babel (not mandatory!), you might say {{Babel|el}}, for a start; then you would not have to make any guesses about the codes or the like. Or if you like, {{Babel|el|en-3}} would also indicated your English level. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:40, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

It's ok, thank you @Dan Polansky: you want to help new users. To be honest, I don't like Babels, probably because I am jealous of all these people speaking 10 languages... So, I shall abstain,for the moment, but I'll think about it. Thank you, sarri.greek (talk) 11:49, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hi, yes κυρογενιά is for the ancestry/lineage of the grandmother as it comes from κυρούλα (grandmother in Mani). I have found the information here (download the pdf). Page numbered 33: Λέξεις παράγωγες και σύνθετες απ' αυτή είναι η "κυρογενιά" (= το γένος τής γιαγιάς), η "ανογενιά" (= το γένος τής μητέρας) η "πεθερογενιά" (= το γένος του πεθερού). Good read ;). — Orgyn (talk) 14:08, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

!!! @Orgyn: Merci! (I see you are francophone, I am afraid my French is terrible). Great source. I thought it derived from κύρης (father). Why not refer to your source at your κυρογενιά page! (visitors might doubt: so much talk in the internet... But your source is so very good. The uoi.gr has nice pdfs) Thank you! sarri.greek (talk) 14:31, 20 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes that's also what I thought when I first heard the term… I've added a link to the thesis in the further reading section ;). — Orgyn (talk) 12:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh Καλό μήνα! Σας περιμένω όλους! I hope you will :-) Got some questions κυριακάτικα:

• 1 passive2 as in στενοχωρώ headline (at {{el-verb}}) is not working
• 2 at Template:el-conjug-1st, at and at ( -όμαστε) ( -όσαστε): is this space intentional?
• 3 participles {{el-participle of}}: Salt, could you check if these additions would be ok? Could they be added?
  • 1) I add Past, so: there are now the sufficient 3 subcats: Present. Past. Perfect. They cover everything.
    • I've added past at {{el-part}}, too (as in παρελθών).
  • 2) Could you add to all: Category:Greek lemmas. (we do this manually now, with {cln|el|lemmas}
    • or should this be at el-part ???

<onlyinclude><!-- = without 'Greek lemmas' (it is done) / no past=past (one is OK)

-->{{ #switch: {{{2}}} <!--
   -->|perfect|perf = ''Perfect ] of'' {{m|el|{{{1}}}}}<!--
      -->{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||] ]}}<!--
   -->|past|past = ''Past ] of'' {{m|el|{{{1}}}}}<!--
      -->{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||] ]}}<!--
   -->|present|pres = ''Present ] of'' {{m|el|{{{1}}}}}<!--
      -->{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||] ]}}<!--
   -->|#default = ''] of'' {{m|el|{{{1}}}}}<!--
      -->{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||] ]}}<!--
   -->}}<!--
-->{{#if:{{{gloss|}}}|;  "{{{gloss|}}}"}}<!--
-->{{#if:{{{nodot|}}}| |.}}<!--

 --></onlyinclude>
    
{{documentation}}

Reply

• I was looking here by chance - as you said some time ago "ping" does not always work!
• passive2 is now back in {{el-verb}}, I'm not sure what happened to it.
• I'll have a look at the "participle" categorisation allocation when I have finished with 1st conjugation tables.
• the extra facilities to be added to {{el-conjug-1st}} are almost ready. When you have time I would be very grateful if you could try them out. The template is {{User:Saltmarsh/template1}} — indication of how to use it can be seen at User:Saltmarsh/template1b.
• Note you can now add up to 3 individual referenced footnotes!!!

— Saltmarsh. 06:44, 3 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yeeeesss!! @Saltmarsh I must move from participles to verbs! (but they are so difficult: Thank you for all your efforts! sarri.greek (talk) 06:47, 3 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

• Take your time, you've lots to do - ping worked that time! — Saltmarsh. 06:51, 3 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

(1) {{el-part}} now categorises participles as lemmas, it also now accepts perf & pres as alternative, shortened tense forms.

(2) {{el-conjug-1st}} can now blank whole past tenses, and you can use freetext in individual cells

(3) Your switch statement above looks OK to me - try it out (or I will if you prefer); incidentally, the line beginning "|past|past =" need only be "|past =" (ie the 2nd |past is unnecessary)

— Saltmarsh. 10:57, 4 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

HOW nice of you @Saltmarsh to take the time to deal with participles too. past=past yes, thank you. VERBSSS: yes yes, I tried at διακόπτω it is great. With the new advanced style, so much can be done! Salt, I need to concentrate more to my preparation, and you know how addictive wiktionary can be. I cannot log in too much, only weekends; until the end of June. After that, I can proofread verbs, a...z or by category, whatever you like. Thank you! Great work! sarri.greek (talk) 12:09, 4 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Sarri - I hope that all goes well — I have now brought all the Category:Greek verb inflection-table templates (new) into line withthe "advanced" parameters found in {{el-conjug-1st}}. But note: (1) "el-conjug-act-imperfective" is now correctly named {{el-conjug-1st-act-imperfective}}; and (b) I have deleted the "long" template because it was unused, and the same effect can be achieved by using the "-act" template followed by the "-pass" one. This may save maintenance time in future! — Saltmarsh. 05:58, 6 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

I have just been looking at the Iordanidou's passive imperfect forms. According to her a number (αναγγέλλω for example) lack the -όμασταν/-όσασταν/-όντουσαν forms. I was going to do something about this - but seek advice at the oracle first! Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated. — Saltmarsh. 05:50, 13 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

About passive imperfect plural endings -όμασταν v. -όμαστε. @Saltmarsh. Iordanidou dislikes -όμασταν -όσασταν plural endings throughout her whole verb-dictionary. She always places them as second choice, and in some verbs as here, αναγγέλλω (αναγγέλλομαι#86) she insists on the -όμαστε ending completely omitting -όμασταν.

For verb-conjug generally: Most of the other grammars (I have a detailed reference list) prefer the -όμασταν/-όσασταν types as first, and the -όμαστε-όσαστε as second option. Including Holton. I personally avoid -όμαστε types because they coincide with Present: λυνόμαστε = we untie ourselves NOW. Imperfect: λυνόμασταν yesterday: λυνόμαστε is not wrong, but no one is going to understand Past.

Now, about αναγγελλόμαστε: it is SO rare (even in Present), I can find no grammar with its forms written out. (3 hits at google, all present, none imperfect). I do not understand why Iord. insists on them. If I neeeed to say this imperfect, I will say αναγγελλόμασταν, and in parenthesis (αναγγελόμαστε) as usual. Note: in ancient greek the distinction is made by the augment: ἀγγελλόμεθα is present, ἠγγελλόμεθα is imperfect. Here is an ux as I would say it:

Αναγγελλόμασταν επί μισή ώρα από τη γραμματέα, αλλά ο υπουργός δεν μας δεχότανε.

Anangellómastan epí misí óra apó ti grammatéa, allá o ypourgós den mas dechótane.

We were being announced by the secretary for half an hour, but the minister would not receive us.

Of course, I would have preferred to say: Η γραμματέας μάς ανήγγειλλε επί μισή ώρα.. The secretary was announcing us for half an hour...

PS some compound imperatives need reviewing, I'll try to give a quick look tomorrow. I am practicing like mad, my memory and my technique is not what it used to be 10 years ago, so I need to work harder now. sarri.greek (talk) 00:33, 14 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek Thank you for fixing έρπω and thanks for the above, I shall read and digest your words - and wait a couple of weeks before asking more. Don't overdo it !! — Saltmarsh. 06:01, 14 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Good morning @Saltmarsh I am here! No, do ask, I ll do it:) sarri.greek (talk) 06:02, 14 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Γεια @Sarri.greek - I will assume in future that -ασταν as the norm. We can perhaps revisit any of Iord's paradigms later. In English some authors use the "historic present" (actually the present tense) to introduce a sense of immediacy into their writing - fine. Annoyingly (to me) some broadcasters use this continuously, when a past tense would be more correct - they may consider that it livens up their words, I don't! — Saltmarsh. 06:13, 14 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes, @Saltmarsh historic present is quite dramatic, I guess in many languages. (Especailly with football broadcasters). But here, the -όμασταν, -όμαστε thing, is different. Yes, I vote for -όμασταν as first option:) sarri.greek (talk) 06:17, 14 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hi there!
How do you mean the question "where do you want them"?
The phrases are German (lang-code de) and not necessarily English (lang-code en), so they are translations and not English alternative forms.
If you were asking for choosing a main form: duden.de only has "last, not least" and "last, but not least" (with comma), but "last not least", "last but not least" (without comma) seemed to me to be more common (by a short superficial google books search). I don't care, which sould be the main entry and which should be alternative form. But without an entry giving the alternative form, it would IMHO be misleading to only give one form as translation and to omit the other, that is, IMHO the alternative forms should be moved if the main entry exist and not be deleted before. -84.161.42.42 16:52, 27 June 2018 (UTC)¨Reply

@84.161.42.42 I could never imagine English in another language, sorry. I thought you wanted them as alternative forms in the English section. (we use English too, in greek)... Truth is: I missed you; There is NO WAY to follow your educative contributions: only by chance. I call you 84.161. Would you like it as Username? I feel safer, when you are around. Thank you! sarri.greek (talk) 17:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

• That ping didn't work (and it's not a matter of changing IPs).
• Some sources state that "last not least" is German and not even English, i.e. that it's a pseudo-anglicism:
  • Sebastian Knospe in Pseudo-English. Studies on False Anglicisms in Europe. Edited by Cristiano uriassi and Henrik Gottlieb (Language Contact and Bilingualism vol. 9), 2015, p. 106: "and one supra-lexical pseudo-Anglicism, i.e. last not least, were found"
  • Alexander Onysko, Anglicisms in German. Borrowing, Lexical Productivity, and Written Codeswitching (Linguistik Impulse & Tendenzen), 2007, p. 53: "and last not least (E. last but not least)"
  • : "the pseudo-English idiom “last not least"
• Thank you very much. I'm glad, if I could help.

-84.161.42.42 20:08, 27 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

84, Thank you, I did not mean to burden you with writing so many sources. I trust you without sources too.
I was hinting to your elusiveness.
Elusive, υπερκαλλιεύθραυστος

We seek him here, we seek him there

we seek him dans le wiktionnaire

Is he in Latin? Is he in Hell?

Is he in German? We cannot tell.

sarri.greek (talk) 20:17, 27 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Erutuon, JohnC5, Mahagaja There are many subcategories at Category:Ancient Greek verbs. Is there a reason for the Category:Ancient Greek deponent verbs missing?
I don't see the label at Module:labels/data labels = {)...
I m not sure, but I think all these are deponents (of some sort) I can add the {lb|grc|deponent} at all of them; please erase any wrong ones... (Unless you want to create variations: dep.middle, dep.passive, dep.mixed)

• αἰδέομαι, αἰσθάνομαι, ἀκροάομαι, ἁλίσκομαι, ἀναλάζομαι, ἀποπέρδομαι-πέρδομαι ἀποφθέγγομαι ἀρνέομαι ἀσπάζομαι βούλομαι γείνομαι γίγνομαι-παραγίγνομαι γίνομαι-παραγίνομαι δαίομαι δέρκομαι δέχομαι δημοκρατέομαι διαγωνίζομαι διαλογίζομαι δύναμαι ἕζομαι εἴδομαι εἴρομαι ἔρομαι ἔλδομαι ἐπίσταμαι ἕπομαι ἔραμαι ἐργάζομαι-κατεργάζομαι-συνεργάζομαι ἐρέπτομαι* ἐρεύγομαι εὔχομαι ζεύγνυμι ζώννυμι ἡγέομαι-ἐξηγέομαι-ἐπεξηγέομαι ἥδομαι θεάομαι ἰάομαι ἱκνέομαι-ἀφικνέομαι ἱλάσκομαι κάθημαι καταχράομαι καυχάομαι κτάομαι λογίζομαι μαίνομαι μασάομαι μάχομαι-συμμάχομαι μείρομαι μέλδομαι μέμφομαι μνάομαι μάρναμαι νέομαι οἴχομαι ὀλοφύρομαι ὀρχέομαι ὄσσομαι ὀττεύομαι πειράομαι πέπνυμαι πέτομαι προσεύχομαι πτάρνυμαι πυνθάνομαι -- διαπυνθάνομαι προπυνθάνομαι ῥύομαι-ἐρύομαι σκέπτομαι στοχάζομαι στραγγαλόομαι συλλογίζομαι φέβομαι φθέγγομαι χειρόομαι ὠνέομαι
• ἔρχομαι -- ἀπέρχομαι διέρχομαι εἰσέρχομαι ἐξέρχομαι παρέρχομαι προέρχομαι προσέρχομαι συνέρχομαι (the group has problematic present subj.optatives, -ερχοίμην... Do they exist...

I cannot do these; you could tick for me the ones that ARE deponent:

• ? ἀπαμείβομαι ἀπιχθυόομαι-ἰχθυάζομαι ἄρνυμαι δηλέομαι ἧμαι κεῖμαι-ὑπόκειμαι λάζομαι λέχομαι λιλαίομαι τέρσομαι
• ἀναχρονίζομαι.act.meaning Ι also find ἀναχρονίζω
• διαλέγομαι of λέγω2
• διανοέομαι (there is a Κοινη διανοέω)
• μαντεύομαι - μαντεύω?
• μέδομαι - μέδω
• οἴγνυμι synonym of οἴγω
• πλουτοκρατέομαι - πλουτοκρατέω
• σέβομαι - σέβω
• ὑπισχνέομαι, ἴσχω
• ὑποκρίνομαι of ὑποκρίνω+ὑποκρίνομαι
• ὑφαιρέομαι
• φοβέω φοβέομαι
• χαρίζω χαρίζομαι
• χράομαι χράω
• οἴομαι, Att: οἶμαι

sarri.greek (talk) 06:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Γεια σου. Why did you tag the Tsakonian descendants with |der=? They aren't morphological derivations, they're regular phonetic inheritances, AFAICT. Per utramque cavernam 12:36, 2 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Oh I saw one, and done them all... ok I'll turn them as they were, I should not meddle with it... I was so excited! There is one User:Ephranor doing so much! Thanks @Per utramque cavernam for explaining... You have always been a patient teacher. sarri.greek (talk) 16:01, 2 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

About γυνή (gunḗ) / γυναίκα (gynaíka): I used |der= because of the paradigm leveling that has taken place. I.e. the nominative γυναίκα can't come directly from the nominative γυνή, phonetically speaking. But that's probably me being a little nitpicky here, I don't know. Per utramque cavernam 16:18, 2 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

(Same thing for γουναίκα (gounaíka) of course) Per utramque cavernam 16:21, 2 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

re:Template talk:el-part — Do you feel strongly about the categorisation of participles as lemmas? To maintain peace in the camp I would not object to a "climb down". — Saltmarsh. 08:56, 7 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh A policy if policy is a policy :) I don't mind. I just explain at Template talk:el-part why, it should be a gain versus paper dictionaries. sarri.greek (talk) 09:19, 7 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

I am sorry about this - I have been unable to get things done today and we're off to care for the g-children so that their mother can go into work. I won't be able to get anything done until Thursday 30th — Saltmarsh. 15:21, 27 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Dear Sarri — I shall start on the next conjugation:type (whatever we call it) toward the end of the month, if I start now I will have to try to "pick up the threads" when we return for Παξοί. Nevertheless I shall be thinking about it occasionally! — Saltmarsh. 05:48

• Meanwhile I shall do something requiring less thought. I came across ΜΜΕ and created an entry but am unhappy about the meaning of μέσα, does it have a figurative meaning here?
• If you don't have enough to do (ειρωνεία) you could have a look at Category:Requests for attention concerning Greek where there are other problems for those more knowledgeable with the language. Many have been there for ages, so no hurry! — Saltmarsh. 07:03, 2 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Salt! @Saltmarsh I'm working with ΜΜΕ aaaa your μαζικός is already done! you are faster than me. μέσο=medium is fine. I have worked on μέσα and all the related words. Did some audio too.

ok, I ll take a look at that Cat and check the greek rf. (There are the deletion words waiting for you magic touch!). I'm a bit busy this week, but I am looking forward to nexxxt week.

Salt... please could you take a look at these variations of conjug-2nd. At the moment the {{el-conjug-2nd-B}} is only for learned -B verbs. They are LESS than the populous ασκώ verbs. ok ok, after next week :-) ~! sarri.greek (talk) 12:46, 3 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry - like you I'm busy this week and won't have much time to attend to the above until I return. — Saltmarsh. 05:53, 5 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I noticed that an hour ago, you marked my entry on listis for imminent deletion. What are your thoughts on dam bao, another transliteration I added a few weeks ago? Inner Focus (talk) 21:54, 5 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello @Inner Focus. Nice of you to add the greek word ληστής. It was important. As for transliterations: I do not know about other languages, but I have never seen one in wiktionary, for greek. I presume the guests can always see the Wiktionary:Greek transliteration page. sarri.greek (talk) 22:03, 5 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Inner Focus I think we shouldn’t start to create romanization pages for Greek. If we do that one could argue to do it for every non-Latin script, and we do not want to maintain it even for Greek but the editors rather concentrate on the actual entries. If this is done for Chinese it is because it is nothing eyebrow-raising for actual dictionaries to be based on transcriptions. And Gothic has it for technical reasons and because else all Germanic languages use the Latin script else. Fay Freak (talk) 22:49, 5 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Fay, Inner maybe has a point. You remember the other day, I had similar problem with 'alan? And you helped me find it? Couldn't they make the Search Box do the job? With various simplified transliterations? @Fay Freak, Inner Focus. sarri.greek (talk) 22:53, 5 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

You can search the transcriptions in the actual pages and thus find the sought-for pages if you do it right, usually searching the transcription with the language name is enough. Fay Freak (talk) 22:59, 5 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Oh Fay, @Fay Freak shukran. I'll need to study this one. But visitors will never be able to do this. The lemmata do not appear at google search either. Unless one writes EXACTLY the transliteration. e.g. ʿalan gives علن but alan gives alll the variations except the arabic. xiexie gives the English lemma. sarri.greek (talk) 23:15, 5 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I'm back and it may take me a day or so to get into the swing. You ask:
1. "How is polytonic Greek presented?" — ὑπολογισμένος: I think this entry looks fine. A couple of questions:
: a) Should there be some indication that this is a dated/obsolete form?
: b) Would the Category:Polytonic Greek be better named Category:Polytonic forms of Modern Greek?
2. "Duplicate all monotonic lemmata in all categories?" — Eventually all words ever written should be here - but I don't think that we need to industriously add them all at the moment!
— Saltmarsh. 05:50, 29 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes, @Saltmarsh poly words can be added in the future, but I ask now^{after verbs are fixed}, because I face the problem constantly.

• 2. Allllll words???? It will duplicate half greek lexicon (I do not have exact number: everything beginning with vowel or diphthong, and everything with a circonflexe). Check how Category:Greek perfect participles looks, where I tried 3 poly words. :(
• 1b. I find the title Category:Polytonic Greek more economic. I like it better.
• 1a. some words, yes, are dated: ἀερολιμήν (oops, I forgot to link to αερολιμήν, which should say: Monotonic spelling of ἀερολιμήν. But not all. Some are in frequent use. εν τούτοις

The link Polytonic of the Template:polytonic form of gives the info that they were written as poly before 1982. I would have liked this date IN the page, like: Pre-1982 polytonic spelling of

• spelling/script (or am I having a misconception of the english word form again....) e.g.
  • απαρχαιωμένος=gre.mod.demotic form. ἀπαρχαιωμένος=the same form, Pre-1982 polytonic spelling of... απαρχαιωμένος
  • ἀπηρχαιωμένος=Katharevousa label, poly label, with NO use of expression Katharevousa form of. THIS is the main word, is the same page, and identical to the
  • απηρχαιωμένος= Monotonic spelling of ἀπηρχαιωμένος (Template needed for this one)

What I currently do is:

• A. when identical poly ancient exists: I just link with ancient as in
  • λευκού with link λευκοῦ^{=ancient page} with comment: poly. I do NOT make a modern greek section in the ancient page.
    • Normally, I should make a poly section, like in δημοκρατιῶν
  • A2. poly which is Kath too, as in λευκώ#Greek I link to the ancient λευκῷ with comment: Kath. Again, no special section at the ancient page.
• B. (dem or Kath) whose poly does not exist in ancient: αγυιόπαις#Usage notes. comment with no link... until the policy for poly-words is decided.

Note: Kath, medieval (even ancient) words, are now written in monotonic. E.g. see the medieval dictionary of Kriaras (λευκός) where the quotations of mediaeval texts are in monotonic. (it would make my like simpler if they were in poly).
There are TWO problems/issues:

• Problem1: transliteration. (which is another subject to be discussed^{some time in the future}: many words like μπαμπάς need manual editing of the transliateration) As for POLY words, Module:grc-translit could also serve as el-poly transliteration for words of 1453-1982!!
  • χάος#Usage notes hand-written
• Issue 2: politics. Wiktionary runs the risk of giving the impression that it supports Katharevousa or the pro‑polytonic mouvement, which still exists in Greece. The poly and Kath words should NEVER go under headings like: ALTERNATIVE forms (nooo, they are not alternative, they are past/historical spellings) or the USAGE notes: usage = I use. But we do NOT USE anymore. I wish there were a heading: Notes, just Notes.
  • The ante-1982 onpaper dictionaries DO NOT give such info on poly and Kath. Wiktionary will be the first.

My wise mentor will think of a solution, not now, but in the future. Thank you Salt. sarri.greek (talk) 05:28, 30 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello and thank you for the corrections about the lemma on greek "komedi". I am confused about the rendering of greek "nt". You are right that the original and "proper" pronunciation is with /d/, however in spoken greek, as i am sure you already know, /d/ is generally exchangeable with /nd/, both in greek words and foreign borrowings, despite the word's etymology. It is understood as the same sound. In practice I hear in the media the pronunciation /komendi/ occasionally, which is perhaps "wrong" but generally unnoticeable and acceptabe. Generally all greek words that include "nt" have both /d/ and /nd/ pronunciation as allophones. PS. If you reply, please include my name so that I will receive a notification. :) Γαλαδριήλ (talk) 12:13, 30 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Of course, @Γαλαδριήλ, your comments are correct. μπ, ντ, γκ have this ambiguity: foreign b? foreing mp? or hellenized mb? For some words the hellenized version is now status quo: ιμπεριαλισμός is not pronounced , but and this has been accepted for many years now. But for other words, it is considered 'wrong' to pronounce them in the greek fashion. Wrong, in the sense, that if a professional newscaster says: a piano piece, alengro monderato, probably he would be fired. I think that comedie is similar. One would like to include nonstandard variations of pronunciations, but should, in the same time, warn the reader NOT to use them. sarri.greek (talk) 12:24, 30 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

My apologies for faffing around today! I don't know if you are aware of these templates for attaching dates to definitions and entries: User:Saltmarsh/Sampler#Dating. I've put this link to them in case they are new to you. Some of them more useful than others. — Saltmarsh. 18:45, 30 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thank you @Saltmarsh, excellent -so organized!-. I was thinking that for many defs, we must add: end of 20th century. or First half of 21st century. :) Thank you. sarri.greek (talk) 18:50, 30 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

A million thanks for the verb help on επιλέγω. The new verb tables are fantastic but I have trouble choosing which verb to pick. Amazing work though, especially including all those archaic forms that were in Babiniotis but I had no idea how to place them in the table! On a related note, I am looking for verb tables for verbs like γελώ / γελάω in the new verb tables, as in verbs ending on accented omega. Have they been made yet? Rossyxan (talk) 22:53, 2 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, @Rossyxan, I ve been following the re-doing of tables by our Saltmarsh! Not all are ready e.g. -άω ώ. I am not editing much, until they become stable. This is the book that has it alll. Also categories are not yet decided. I let them be red... And there is a list of the codes for each cell somewhere; Salt, I am sure, will publish it again. He will let us know. sarri.greek (talk) 23:03, 2 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Rossyxan please wait before using the new templates for Type 1 or Type 2 conjugations. Changes are still afoot and this will entail checking each verb using the new templates. — Saltmarsh. 04:54, 3 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

The present parameter names for 2B are stem, s-stem, pattern, etc

When I start writing a template I am unsure where it will lead me. The best names are intuitive (διαισθητικός). Returning from our holiday I had a few seconds hesitation about the parameter  pattern . I propose to change this to  infix , its meaning will be more immediately understandable. If you like I will edit your page User:Sarri.greek/lab/verbs so that the new name is used. — Saltmarsh. 15:16, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Oh, no prob. I'll do it now @Saltmarsh, and for some pages using it. (by the way: I am reading at el.wikisource and saw your message!) sarri.greek (talk) 15:19, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

I have edited the template - fingers crossed that nothing unexpected happens :) — Saltmarsh. 15:35, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

User:Sarri.greek/lab/verbs @Saltmarsh looks fine now. I can check the other pages. sarri.greek (talk) 15:37, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Also, @Saltmarsh you have changed infix=act-s to infix-5=act-s. Is it for all the template? Can I use replace for the versions? sarri.greek (talk) 15:53, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes, having two "infix"s would have been confusing. I hadn't taken your templates into consideration. How many are there? — Saltmarsh. 16:08, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

It is ok @Saltmarsh I got it. sarri.greek (talk) 16:09, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I'm not sure where you are talking about - are you doing something different? - Can I see them? — Saltmarsh. 16:14, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

I have replaced @Saltmarsh at the versions pattern with infix, and infix= with infix-5= and everything is fine. Do not worry sarri.greek (talk) 16:17, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

• This bad entry marked for deletion - I have redirected it to γι' αυτό — Saltmarsh. 17:54, 18 October 2018 (UTC)Reply
• I am working my way through those "rfd's", I'm sorry about the bad past tense forms (they mainly seem to be the long ones) I cannot look at a Greek word and immediately see that I've got it wrong. Most lemmas I get right because I look them up elsewhere - but those past tenses😢. Also I don't have a Greek keyboard and frequently get the υ/θ (y/u on mine) and ω/ν (v/n on mine) muddled. Enough excuses, I shall have to take more care. — Saltmarsh. 18:25, 18 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Dear Salt! @Saltmarsh, I have checked all the verb-forms, ALL 3.745 of them (to change that horrible mistake of mine: calling the Dependent: indicative!), and i found ONLY 6 or 7 mistakes!!! as they ones you describe. And they were typos, not real mistakes: you are great. Sorry that I have been away for some days: too much work. I must get organized, like you are. One word every day. I shall try...

PS Ahh about the γι'αυτό, απ'αυτό: the apostrophos needs a space after it always γι' αυτό, απ' αυτό (although grammars do not describe it, they just show it by example). It is written differently from the english apostrophe. I saw that you have redirected them. You know that I would like all redirects to be excluded from googlesearches. I like them to be in wiktionary, they are helpful, but not at google. People believe in them without bothering to click-in. And also, they COUNT as google hits. sarri.greek (talk) 19:51, 22 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks you for undertaking that long almost thankless task! I will leave those verb templates until you have more time. There is not much to be done about those google word counts, additionally there are those web sites which seem to copy Wiktionary - I have never checked to see if our deleted entries disappear from them. — Saltmarsh. 06:03, 23 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks again for the stick - I am still investigating! Where do you suggest our attention should be concentrated now? — Saltmarsh. 06:56, 31 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Good morning, boss! @Saltmarsh. I guess the 2nd-B temps. One more thing about {{el-conjug-1st-act}} the p-perf-part in conjunction with a-2nd perfect. Let me check my notes, and I'll come back to you. sarri.greek (talk) 07:01, 31 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Καλό μήνα! Μέντορα — yet another month!!

• I don't have much time today, but I'll try to look back at what might to be done 2nd-B temps
• Will -άω forms always be the "primary" entry for these verbs (ie will "-ώ" forms be the first entry for some) - if so they might be better off with a "reversed" table.
• Please hold your fire on {{el-conjug-1st-act}}, I will do it better if I deal with them one at a time!

— Saltmarsh. 06:20, 1 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

I must read carefully - write out 100 times! I have just gone back and read you note re PPP. I will have a look at {{el-conjug-1st-act}} first. — Saltmarsh. 06:42, 1 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

The "system" flagged an "error" on this page some time ago. I've moved you comment to the etymology section. What you had written read alright to a user, but on the other hand there is a formal way of organising an entry. The alternative is (I think) to classify the entry as an adjective. (with apologies!) — Saltmarsh. 15:26, 3 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

No problem @Saltmarsh. I was trying various styles for participles at the time. I'll check if there is more. sarri.greek (talk) 16:41, 3 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

The other way to handle it would be to add a usage note, but that might be a bit cumbersome. — Saltmarsh. 19:39, 3 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Oh i can also erase it: at the time, i was checking statistics of how many times it is used as adj. or as predicative. Doesn't really matter: I gave up doing this procedure for every participle. Thank you for your concern. sarri.greek (talk) 19:43, 3 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello Sarri — I just deleted αβγατίζομαι which I had created some time ago, it is absent from Μπαμπι, Jiord, Βικι and πύλη. When I came to its derivatives I found that you had added the etym to αβγατισμένος, so perhaps the passive form does exist. Should I reinstate αβγατίζομαι. — Saltmarsh. 06:55, 16 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

No, αβγατίζομαι I have never heard, but ppp αβγατισμένος is used as = rich, enriched. Thaaanks, @Saltmarsh (PS I am now checking the αρχ-... verbs :) sarri.greek (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks — no ping, so I didn't notice you'd responded :) — I've modified {{el-participle of}}, it can now cope with ppp. — Saltmarsh. 07:00, 24 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

I just noticed Lambiam's comment "We aim to record actual use". An English example: "I would of gone for a drink with you." "would of" is nonsense, but quite commonly heard even sometimes by the BBC — "would have" is the intended phrase. "would have" is commonly abbreviated to "would've", this has been (misheard?) and ungrammatically expanded to "would of". So I have added a suitable note to κοκκινομάλλα's inflection table, please don't be unhappy about this and I hope that honour is satisfied. — Saltmarsh. 07:19, 24 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, @Saltmarsh It's ok, it is not a matter of 'honour'. It is the problem of inflecting demotic like Katharevousa. SOME words do have it and others do not. You have handled it very nicely. I understand that wiktionary has a steady policy on keeping pages for misconstructions. Thanks, and thanks for the Passive participle too! sarri.greek (talk) 11:53, 24 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

I am sorry about this - back in July, and I cannot remember why - I changed the name of the "form-of-verb" template to "verb form of" THIS WAS A MISTAKE!

In future please use the old one {{el-form-of-verb}}, its name which matches {{el-form-of-nounadj}} and {{el-form-of-adv}}.

Please don't use {{el-verb form of}} which now REDIRECTS to {{el-form-of-verb}}, so there is no need to change the old entries - they will still appear correctly.

thanks — Saltmarsh. 12:30, 4 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

PS The headword-line template {{el-verb-form}} remains the same. — Saltmarsh.

Thank you, I'm glad that you like my work here on Wiktionary, @Sarri.greek. I do Ancient Greek, Latin and sometimes Italian and German. I think that the θήκη#Derived_terms: should be moved to -θήκη#Ancient_Greek too and I thank you for your idea. samubert96 (talk) 14:31, 11 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

ok! @Samubert86 I'll move them there. I wouldn't interfere with your nice work without asking: θήκας, plants and herbs, cities... Strabo? Galen? Fragments by Aretaeos? You do a lot of Ησύχιος, I understand. So, you could be Thorybos (θόρυβος), or Thorybodes (θορυβώδης)!

PS I find 95 -θήκη @perseus and I'll check the 47 modern ones @DSMG sarri.greek (talk) 23:25, 11 December 2018 (UTC)Reply